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Author Topic: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.  (Read 1657 times)

Dandelion

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Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« on: February 13, 2022, 08:48:47 PM »

Sorry for the long post.

The reason I want to come off HRT is the progesterone. (Utrogestan in my case, which I am currently doing fine with, I will advise why I want to get off it further down in the post)

Progesterone is cross tolerant with the diazepam (a drug in the benzodiazepine family), which I am dependent on.
That is to say, they both act on the GABA receptors, as do steroids, and we know that progesterone is a steroid hormone.

I am currently being helped, by my psychiatrist, to come off the diazepam, by slow reductions, as it is very difficult to come off without medical supervision.

An important goal, with benzodiazepine-reduction, is to keep the GABA receptors as stable as possible, by making small reductions, at intervals spaced far enough apart, for as smooth a reduction as possible.

I would not have gone on HRT, if, at the time, I knew that progesterone affected the GABA receptors in this way. I will come to the reason why I want to come off it, further along in the post.

Neither my psychiatrist, nor my GP, or gynaecologists know about this as my psychiatrist is not familiar with gynaecological matters, and my gynaecologists are not familiar with the action of benzodiazepines' relation to progesterone.

Women who have never had a dependency on benzodiazepines can come off progesterone with no problems, with the exception of the progesterone issues women on here have.

I am a member of a well known benzodiazepine support forum.
Progesterone comes up a lot in discussion such as:
  • Pre-menopausal women, who struggle badly with natural progesterone fluctuations in their monthly cycle.
    Women on birth control pills, for similar reasons.
    Women on HRT, especially cyclical, but also, continuous HRT.
    Most of all, women who want to decrease their progesterone.
Why do they want to decrease their progesterone prescription? Answer - tolerance.

When the body gets used to a certain dose of benzodiazepines, it starts to display withdrawal symptoms, because, tolerance means that dose is no longer doing it’s job, and the body “thinks” it needs more.
Women who are dependent on benzodiazepines also get tolerant to progesterone.

The Americans are prescribed the progesterone cream and need a much smaller dose, compared to
the seemingly massive doses of utrogestan, by comparison.

Many women who taper the cream, even by smaller amounts, have become incapacitated, suggesting that the progesterone has a much stronger effect on the GABA receptors than the benzodiazepine pills.
Women who have stopped the progesterone, not knowing it acts on GABA, suffer disastrous effects.

I could do without the worry of needing to take the progesterone, yet, as I still have a womb, I would need to stop the small amount of oestrogen I am on, which I would be ok with, as the peace of mind from being off the progesterone would make the residual effects of low oestrogen tolerable.

As the diazepam dose gets smaller, so, the reductions need to be smaller also, this can be solved by halving/quartering the pills, liquefying the diazepam by dissolving it, or using liquid diazepam, when I get to the really small doses.

With the utrogestan, it is more of a challenge, because the capsules cannot be halved, or dissolved in liquid.
I know that progesterone pills are used by some women, but I would need to know their exact equivalent dose in relation to utrogestan, ie, what dose pill equals a 100mg capsule?

This has been playing on my mind for ages.
The stress from this has slowed my diazepam reduction, because I have not been able to make reductions as much as I would like.



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Flossieteacake

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2022, 08:57:52 PM »

Hello, I really sympathise with your situation. It is so difficult because your psychiatrist will not be familiar with any HRT and interactions. I personally think it is really good you are reducing the dizapam with supervision. It would be dangerous to do it alone. Whenever I have had to taper an antidepressant I have had to do it much slower then the usual recommended method. I am no expert but I will tell you what I am on. I had an appointment with a menopause DR a few weeks ago and he recommended me take 2 tablets of destrogel as the progeterone. Each one is 75mg. Are you going to be given something to replace the dizapam?
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sheila99

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2022, 10:01:27 PM »

I think someone has reduced their dose by extracting the contents of a utro capsule with a syringe and using a progressively smaller amount. I can't remember if she used it orally or vaginally, presumably if you use it vaginally you can syringe it in but possibly need something to put it in if oral.
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VictoryV

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2022, 11:08:24 PM »

I’ve emptied the capsule into a syringe just to see if it’s possible, it was easy. I used a blunt 14 gauge and a 2ml barrel.
If you want to put it back into a capsule to take orally you can buy empty ones easily.
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CrispyChick

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2022, 11:12:35 AM »

Compounding pharmacies can make oral doses in any quantity. You'd need a prescription from a clinic though - so it wouldn't be cheap.

If it is an option for you - I'd suggest calling a compounding pharmacy to discuss and see who they recommend as a prescriber, for your situation. The Specialist Pharmacy is the pharmacy I use. X
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Dandelion

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Thanks destrogel?
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2022, 03:42:40 AM »

Hello, I really sympathise with your situation. It is so difficult because your psychiatrist will not be familiar with any HRT and interactions. I personally think it is really good you are reducing the dizapam with supervision. It would be dangerous to do it alone. Whenever I have had to taper an antidepressant I have had to do it much slower then the usual recommended method. I am no expert but I will tell you what I am on. I had an appointment with a menopause DR a few weeks ago and he recommended me take 2 tablets of destrogel as the progeterone. Each one is 75mg. Are you going to be given something to replace the dizapam?
Hi

Thanks this is helpful, can I just clarify, does 2 tablets of destrogel equal 2 capsules of utrogestan, just so I can tell my doctor?
In answer to your question about the diazepam, as I will be reducing it slowly under medical supervision I will not need anything to replace it because I am not anticipating having anxiety after a nice slow taper.
Thanks
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Dandelion

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2022, 03:46:17 AM »

I think someone has reduced their dose by extracting the contents of a utro capsule with a syringe and using a progressively smaller amount. I can't remember if she used it orally or vaginally, presumably if you use it vaginally you can syringe it in but possibly need something to put it in if oral.
Hi

I thought about this, however, I did not see a way of getting all of the utrogestan out of the capsule and wondered if there would be quite a lot left in.
Reducing utrogestan is not a problem for women who have not had previous benzodiazepine dependence, however, for those like me, who have, I have to be precise, and the bit left in the capsule lining would be a problem. 
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Dandelion

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2022, 03:49:47 AM »

I’ve emptied the capsule into a syringe just to see if it’s possible, it was easy. I used a blunt 14 gauge and a 2ml barrel.
If you want to put it back into a capsule to take orally you can buy empty ones easily.
Hi
Thank you
Did you manage to get absolutely all of it out of the capsule?
For women who have never had benzodiazepine dependency, it is not such a problem getting it all out of the capsule, but for those of us who have, we would need to know that we can get absolutely every bit out.
I ask because An American woman I knew, who had been dependent on benzodiazepines, was incapacitated by a 2mg cut in progesterone cream.
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Dandelion

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2022, 03:53:26 AM »

Compounding pharmacies can make oral doses in any quantity. You'd need a prescription from a clinic though - so it wouldn't be cheap.

If it is an option for you - I'd suggest calling a compounding pharmacy to discuss and see who they recommend as a prescriber, for your situation. The Specialist Pharmacy is the pharmacy I use. X
Hello, can you give me an indication of the price?
I love to think money should not get in the way of health however I am on benefits
Thank you
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Flossieteacake

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Re: Thanks destrogel?
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2022, 10:18:38 AM »

Hello, I really sympathise with your situation. It is so difficult because your psychiatrist will not be familiar with any HRT and interactions. I personally think it is really good you are reducing the dizapam with supervision. It would be dangerous to do it alone. Whenever I have had to taper an antidepressant I have had to do it much slower then the usual recommended method. I am no expert but I will tell you what I am on. I had an appointment with a menopause DR a few weeks ago and he recommended me take 2 tablets of destrogel as the progeterone. Each one is 75mg. Are you going to be given something to replace the dizapam?
Hi

Thanks this is helpful, can I just clarify, does 2 tablets of destrogel equal 2 capsules of utrogestan, just so I can tell my doctor?
In answer to your question about the diazepam, as I will be reducing it slowly under medical supervision I will not need anything to replace it because I am not anticipating having anxiety after a nice slow taper.
Thanks

I do not know if it is the same dose. Sadly, I have been unable to tolerate that dose myself now. It is wonderful you feel in the position not to need anything for anxiety. That is so positive. :)
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Dandelion

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Re: Thanks destrogel?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2022, 03:14:39 AM »

Hello, I really sympathise with your situation. It is so difficult because your psychiatrist will not be familiar with any HRT and interactions. I personally think it is really good you are reducing the dizapam with supervision. It would be dangerous to do it alone. Whenever I have had to taper an antidepressant I have had to do it much slower then the usual recommended method. I am no expert but I will tell you what I am on. I had an appointment with a menopause DR a few weeks ago and he recommended me take 2 tablets of destrogel as the progeterone. Each one is 75mg. Are you going to be given something to replace the dizapam?
Hi

Thanks this is helpful, can I just clarify, does 2 tablets of destrogel equal 2 capsules of utrogestan, just so I can tell my doctor?
In answer to your question about the diazepam, as I will be reducing it slowly under medical supervision I will not need anything to replace it because I am not anticipating having anxiety after a nice slow taper.
Thanks

I do not know if it is the same dose. Sadly, I have been unable to tolerate that dose myself now. It is wonderful you feel in the position not to need anything for anxiety. That is so positive. :)
Hello again
What problems were you having tolerating the destrogel?
I ask as some women are progesterone intolerant.
I'm glad I raised this thread as it has helped me think of an idea.

Utrogestan goes in the vagina, the capsule dissolves really quickly, the vagina is body temperature, and the utrogestan does not degrade with heat upto body temperature.

This is useful because I could measure out a little bit of olive oil or similar, with the aid of a thermometer, heat it, and put the capsule in the oil.

I could then cut up the capsule with a scalpel whilst it is in the oil and that gets around the problem of the white utrogestan fluid sticking to the inside walls of the capsule.

I could take out a tiny amount with a syringe, the oil adding volume so I could take measurable amounts, 1/10th of a 1ml marked syringe, and do a kind of liquid daily titration and not notice any withdrawals.

Where there is a will there is a way.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2022, 03:22:32 AM by Dandelion »
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Flossieteacake

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Re: Coming off HRT, possible considerations.
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2022, 09:13:53 AM »

I found I was severely depressed. I did not want to move or get up. I started thinking about ending my life and felt so deeply sad and tearful. I seem to have this reaction with all the progesterone I have tried. I am waiting for a prescription to try a vaginal one. I hope your idea works for you. It is awful how much we can suffer trying to find the right combination.
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