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[Pennyfarthing]

I was expected to pass my 11+, but went into meltdown during the exam. I failed and no amount of appealing by my primary school made any difference. That was it for the next 5 years. I went to the local secondary modern. My education was 3rd rate, apart from domestic science and needle work and an excellent art department. Physics was a boy's subject and biology was a girl's subject. I was in the small minority of 5 who went on to 6th form to take A Levels very poorly prepared, but determined and motivated. I didn't even know how to make notes or write essays!

Selection to go to grammar schools should not hinge on a child's performance on one day. I would have done well in a comprehensive school. Secondary modern schools were very much Cinderella schools and I was shocked by the predjustice I experienced from some quarters when I went on to the 6th form in a grammar school. It was as if children attending secondary modern schools were lesser beings, less worthy.

There is a place for grammar schools, if they foster academic excellence, but not at the expense of excellence of other schools. Every child is worthy and important. The most important thing is that children leave school believing they 'can', that they are worthy and that there is more to life than paper qualications.

Don't forget though JuJu there was also the possibility of kids transferring to Grammar school from Sec Modern at around 13 or 14 if it was felt they would be better placed at GS.  We had several kids join our school like this .... I had a friend who could have come to GS at 14 but she chose to stay at SM because she was happy there and did well and went on to be a senior nurse.

Really?

 Your friend was fortunate to have this choice. It was not offered during my time at school and in my county. I had to wait till age 16. I became a teacher despite my schooling. I became a teacher as I was determined to give a better school experience to my pupils. Failing the 11+ battered my self esteem, but that was as much the fault of my parents, because of their reaction.

yes, as CLKD said in her post just now ... She remembers kids taking the 13+.   I remember a lad coming to our GS from SM and I have a feeling he was about 15 but his teachers at SM felt he had slipped through the net at 11+. He went on to become quite a high flying accountant.

You did well Juju as have many of my friends who went to SM.  I think as long as the child is happy and makes friends that's the main thing.

[Ju Ju]

Sadly I was not happy. I became very depressed for a few years. Home and school. It was not good school. You only met the head teacher if you were misbehaving for only for the cane. He hadn't a clue who I was! Some teachers were unable to keep control, so I have memories of children jumping on tables, fights in the playground........! I wanted to take English Literature at O level, but it was only on offer as a combined subject with English Language at CSE level. The English teacher tried to arrange for me to go to evening classes in the school where it was on offer, but the Head wouldn't agree. There were some good teachers. In my last year there the younger teachers complained, quietly, and in confidence about the head teacher and his attitudes.

There was no 13+ on offer where I lived. No one transferred to the Grammer school until age 16. Just teachers querying why I was there!  Thank goodness things have moved on.

[walking the dog]

I think we went to the same school juju ! Kids climbing in out windows talking over teachers, kids leaving room . How anyone was meant to learn anything I dont know 😒

[walking the dog]

Oh and the best bit is it was a catholic school ! Dont get me started on that ,how people can say standards of behaviour are better in catholic schools I dont know and as for standards of education !!!!!

[Pennyfarthing]

I think we went to the same school juju ! Kids climbing in out windows talking over teachers, kids leaving room . How anyone was meant to learn anything I dont know 😒

It's no different now in many schools. My hubby was working in a high school recently and he said the female teacher had a class of maybe 13/14 year olds.  They wouldn't come IN the room quietly, then they messed about, shouting over her and throwing stuff around. About 10 minutes before the bell was due they all started packing their stuff up and putting jackets on and the teacher shrieked at them the whole time.  When they all ran out my hubby said "omg are they always like that?" And the woman said "we have a lot worse than that class believe me."  That wasn't a rough school either, it is in a nice leafy part of the city. 

[Dancinggirl]

Behaviour is a big issue in schools - I'm afraid parents do need to set very clear boundaries for kids and teach them respect - it seems to be about ‘entitlement' these days, children feel they are entitled to say and do what they want and be ‘respected' for this!!!! Teachers get horribly bullied these days.

My experience of secondary school was pretty typical of the 70s when comprehensives came in.  I was at a minor grammar school that turned comprehensive in my second year.  There was a major exodus of all the good teachers and a big influx of young inexperienced teachers - the standards dropped dramatically - to the extent that when I got to year 5 and there was no sixth to move on to because so few had achieved grades that would take them to A level standard. I got a paltry 5 ‘O' Levels and went to ballet college at 16 (my middle class parents didn't think educating a girl was that important )  - to this day I have a big chip on my shoulder about my education.

My daughter went a local comprehensive that was deemed excellent - it had 1500 pupils, I think there were 10-11 classes in each year!!!. In the first term they were all assessed and she ended up in the bottom stream for english and maths. The school claimed that extra support and help would be in place and that mobility between the streams happened regularly.  Her confidence dropped dreadfully - she had supply teachers most of the time as the better teachers taught the upper streams. I quickly realised there was no way that she could catch up or even possibly move into even the middle stream. I paid for tuition privately (which I discovered was what most the other parents did if they could find the money), however the teenage years are tough enough without having to do extra work outside of school and I wanted her to develop her other skills e.g. sport, music and art.  I begged a small local private girls school to take her and we remortgaged the house - within 6 weeks of being in this new school she was different girl and whilst she is not academic she certainly did much better at this school which offered a wonderful music and art department. We downsized house 3 times to cover the cost of her education through to A Level and beyond.
The idea that a Comprehensive caters for all children is a nonsense.  My daughter told me that those in the top streams of the Comp, who were pushed hard at this school and responsible for its good name,  were actually ridiculed by other children so deemed outcasts.  When it got to the GCSE years a good number of the parents had their children tutored - in other words it was about being ‘privileged' enough to have parents who would make the financial sacrifices if they were able to.

Grammar schools can offer an environment where expectations are high without making those that are less able feel less worthy.  What must happen is that quality teachers need to be placed in schools where children are struggling for all kinds of reasons - possibly paying them a higher wage and given specialist training to give the support these children need. Just because a child isn't academic doesn't mean they don't have skills and talents that may give them just as much opportunity for a good career - they often just need a different type of education.

I have worked as a learning support assistant in a primary school and seen that deprivation has nothing to do with class or money - a middle class child can be very deprived of love and support and will fail because of this. 

It's all down to money and logistics  - we need to pay a lot more into the system to get the schooling and health service we want and I'm afraid things do need to be efficiently run just like a successful private company would do.
Dg x

[CLKD]

11+ and 13+ were available in every Education Authority.  If the Head didn't believe that pupils were capable of passing the 13+ why would they be told about the opportunity?  Any child that was a suitable candidate was above me in age so wouldn't have been missed.  He was also aware that even if a child was capable, if the home background wasn't suitable then it wasn't any good offering the 13+.  The child would not get the back up as he/she was expected to go out to work so the less time spent in School the better the (usually) father liked it.  Especially when there were 10 or more children in the family, we knew several like that.


There were 380 children in the School when I went there, (late 1950s) the Head knew every child's background and every child's name. Uniform rules were strictly enforce and if a child arrived without, then the PE teacher would go to the odds and ends cupboard and find something that almost fitted.  At the end of each Summer Term pupils that didn't have younger siblings were asked to donate good quality clothing for such a purpose - can you imagine that happening now? 

The Head occasionally taught Class, he would stride in and take over  the Deputy Head had a Class of his own  …… now Schools are so large and Heads have to do so much paper work, they have less time - apparently.   A 'good' Head of course would know every Member of Staff and every child under his care.  My friend sees her Head of School once a year, at the Leaving Day  .  There is a hierarchy which means the Head doesn't have to engage 

As for parents 'having a say' in whether more Grammar Schools are made available across the UK; yeah, right.  Parents are busy with their own lives and often use Schools as a creche …….. not even bothering to attend Parents' Evenings  .  Even at  Grammar School level. 

The point of getting rid of the 11+ was to cut out streaming ……. that by mixing abilities it would enable the 'better' children to help those who might be struggling - that didn't pan out then DG?!?  …….

[Katejo]

11+ and 13+ were available in every Education Authority.  If the Head didn't believe that pupils were capable of passing the 13+ why would they be told about the opportunity?  Any child that was a suitable candidate was above me in age so wouldn't have been missed.  He was also aware that even if a child was capable, if the home background wasn't suitable then it wasn't any good offering the 13+.  The child would not get the back up as he/she was expected to go out to work so the less time spent in School the better the (usually) father liked it.  Especially when there were 10 or more children in the family, we knew several like that.


There were 380 children in the School when I went there, (late 1950s) the Head knew every child's background and every child's name. Uniform rules were strictly enforce and if a child arrived without, then the PE teacher would go to the odds and ends cupboard and find something that almost fitted.  At the end of each Summer Term pupils that didn't have younger siblings were asked to donate good quality clothing for such a purpose - can you imagine that happening now? 

The Head occasionally taught Class, he would stride in and take over  the Deputy Head had a Class of his own  …… now Schools are so large and Heads have to do so much paper work, they have less time - apparently.   A 'good' Head of course would know every Member of Staff and every child under his care.  My friend sees her Head of School once a year, at the Leaving Day  .  There is a hierarchy which means the Head doesn't have to engage 

As for parents 'having a say' in whether more Grammar Schools are made available across the UK; yeah, right.  Parents are busy with their own lives and often use Schools as a creche …….. not even bothering to attend Parents' Evenings  .  Even at  Grammar School level. 

The point of getting rid of the 11+ was to cut out streaming ……. that by mixing abilities it would enable the 'better' children to help those who might be struggling - that didn't pan out then DG?!?  …….

I never came across 13+. There were 1 or 2 kids who were promoted from secondary modern after 1 year. There was 1 girl in my class who got upset during a science lesson and we didn't see her again. I later heard that she had been moved to the secondary modern but that was after only a few weeks of our 1st term.
Within the grammar school, we were then split into  3 streams for O level maths post 14 but were all taught together for everything else.

[Dancinggirl]

I think one of the problems with the 11+ is that many children don't blossom until they are around 13. I also remember that most parents had their children tutored to help them get through this test - it had all these aptitude and IQ tests and questions that one needed to practise doing.  I actually failed my 11+ but my parents paid for me to go to this minor grammar school which then turned into a Comprehensive after I had been there are year. When it turned comprehensive they then bought in the ‘streaming' and surprisingly I ended up in the top stream for English and Maths!!!! 
Ironically I actually got higher grades in my O levels than many of the girls who had passed the 11+  - I did a big development spurt in terms of academic ability at the age of 13 and if the school hadn't been so awful I think I might have done far better.
Can they turn the clock back and make grammar schools as they once were - I doubt it.  Parents and children are told they have choice but often too much choice causes a great deal of problems and dissatisfaction. At the moment very few get a good choice.
As we keep saying on MM - we are all different and so there needs to be different types of schools.  The problem arises when parents want a school for their kids that is not perhaps right for them.
Education will always be a very sticky subject.  DG x

[Pennyfarthing]

11+ and 13+ were available in every Education Authority.  If the Head didn't believe that pupils were capable of passing the 13+ why would they be told about the opportunity?  Any child that was a suitable candidate was above me in age so wouldn't have been missed.  He was also aware that even if a child was capable, if the home background wasn't suitable then it wasn't any good offering the 13+.  The child would not get the back up as he/she was expected to go out to work so the less time spent in School the better the (usually) father liked it.  Especially when there were 10 or more children in the family, we knew several like that.


There were 380 children in the School when I went there, (late 1950s) the Head knew every child's background and every child's name. Uniform rules were strictly enforce and if a child arrived without, then the PE teacher would go to the odds and ends cupboard and find something that almost fitted.  At the end of each Summer Term pupils that didn't have younger siblings were asked to donate good quality clothing for such a purpose - can you imagine that happening now? 

The Head occasionally taught Class, he would stride in and take over  the Deputy Head had a Class of his own  …… now Schools are so large and Heads have to do so much paper work, they have less time - apparently.   A 'good' Head of course would know every Member of Staff and every child under his care.  My friend sees her Head of School once a year, at the Leaving Day  .  There is a hierarchy which means the Head doesn't have to engage 

As for parents 'having a say' in whether more Grammar Schools are made available across the UK; yeah, right.  Parents are busy with their own lives and often use Schools as a creche …….. not even bothering to attend Parents' Evenings  .  Even at  Grammar School level. 

The point of getting rid of the 11+ was to cut out streaming ……. that by mixing abilities it would enable the 'better' children to help those who might be struggling - that didn't pan out then DG?!?  …….

I never came across 13+. There were 1 or 2 kids who were promoted from secondary modern after 1 year. There was 1 girl in my class who got upset during a science lesson and we didn't see her again. I later heard that she had been moved to the secondary modern but that was after only a few weeks of our 1st term.
Within the grammar school, we were then split into  3 streams for O level maths post 14 but were all taught together for everything else.

We were split into 3 forms and it was done in alphabetical order by surname.  Each form had approx 24 kids when we started but that fluctuated most years as RAF kids left and others came.  We stayed in these forms until end of 5th year.  We were streamed for Maths too and we had options like cookery or art or needlework, a second language or a second science subject. I think English Literature was an option too.  Even with all those subjects  ..... 8 or 9 I think .... we still played loads of games, swimming etc. We were also encouraged to play games against other schools on Saturday mornings. By the time I was old enough my Dad had a car and he used to take me early in the morning about  10 miles on rural back roads to the nearest bus stop where my friend lived. We then went off to play hockey and my Dad would go off and work a second job gardening and then come back and collect me at lunchtime.

[CLKD]

Cookery - the first lesson was making toast  .  Needlework never made sense to me  even though my Grandmothers, Aunts and Mums were all good with a needle.  I liked general sciences.  I hated the thought of having to read books in order to pass exams., I wanted to read for the love of it 

Music though - that was GREAT!

[Pennyfarthing]

Cookery - the first lesson was making toast  .  Needlework never made sense to me  even though my Grandmothers, Aunts and Mums were all good with a needle.  I liked general sciences.  I hated the thought of having to read books in order to pass exams., I wanted to read for the love of it 

Music though - that was GREAT!

Crikey I'd forgotten music!  That was an option too after third year.  I didn't enjoy music as we had a very uninspiring teacher who only showed an interest in kids who could already play an instrument. When I was about 9 or 10 I really wanted to learn to play the piano and there was a lady in the next village who taught it but we never had enough money for me to go.

[CLKD]

Oh that reminds me!  If we were unsettled in class our teacher would take us out, 2 x 2, for a walk in the lanes.  Can't remember what we did once outdoors but do remember putting on coats, gloves, scarves ……..

[CLKD]

sparkle - I can't remember, I was 5  and so troubled by being surrounded by other children that it's all a blank.

[Pennyfarthing]

Haha - even with forest schools it obviously still depends on who's at the helm I suppose Stellajane - good to hear it's now doing well again. 

S x

We have a couple of schools like this locally and the kids love it.  Mind you they are primary age and young children like that just love exploring, learning and playing.  Whoever is at the helm has a wonderful job encouraging and stimulating little minds but I think as kids get older it becomes more evident as StellaJane says whether they're very bright, average or slower to learn.

At our grammar school each year seems to have a couple of kids who were exceptionally gifted and head and shoulders above everybody else.  A girl on our bus was the dullest girl to talk to but she had what I think was a photographic memory and totally excelled at every subject.  She was so bright she learned French, then Spanish, then Latin and German and her teachers just couldn't keep up with her. Her Latin teacher then gave her lessons in Russian at lunchtimes and during his free periods.  Her Dad was a mechanic and her Mum worked in a fish shop and neither had any qualifications and they certainly weren't pushy parents. 

She left school with the highest number of qualifications ever recorded and also the highest grades and went to Uni and the last I heard of her she was using her wonderful language skills either with the BBC or some govt office.