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[GypsyRoseLee]

It's been.4 days since stopping the combi tabs on 2/10 and going back to just the oestrogen only tabs. But I feel no better. I feel quite awful to be honest, like I'm clinging on by my finger nails.

We've been away for a couple of days and it has only been sheer determination that has got me through it. I feel nauseous much of the time and anxiety is bad.

The only brief relief was when I had a killer headache last night, and that somehow stopped the anxiety getting through for a couple of hours. Then I fell asleep, and woke in the night feeling perfectly calm.

But since breakfast I have felt so jittery and anxious.

I don't understand it? I only took 5 combi tabs, so surely they should be out of my system by now (4 days later)? I assumed that after a couple of days back on oestrogen only tabs, I would start to feel better? But I feel as bad as I ever have done.

All I can think is that, assuming my own cycle is still fairly regular then this is the week before my period would be due. So is it my own progesterone causing problems? I am feeling quite nauseous much of the time too. Never had this with patches.

Anyone got any insights, because I am thoroughly confused and on my knees with this.

Since starting Femoston I have only felt well for the 7-10 days during the end of the first week of the pack and all through the 2nd week. I've been great then. So is it because my own oestrogen is also at it's highest at thst time too? But otherwise it has been dreadful overall.

On the patches I had much longer periods of feeling well and normal.

[Dancinggirl]

GRL - The only thing that occurs to me is possibly trying an SRRI that would help to stabilise your anxiety. If HRT isn't helping (and it obviously isn't) then some other strategies need to be tried.  Maybe you have tried ADs/SRRIs before but you possibly need to try some different types  - my gynae suggested Citalopram.  Many women need ADs and HRT together but as you are still getting quite regular periods then you must be in early peri meno and the HRT is actually not helping at this stage.
An HRT alternative would be to try some Oestrogel (just a small amount) and have a different progesterone e.g. Provera or Utrogestan for just 10-12 days each calendar month - these are also gentler progesterones and this transdermal Oestrogel may work better for you. I had a regime like this through my peri and early meno phase and just used one pump of Oestrogel per day and this kept things under control quite well for years.
I would take a break from all HRT for at least a month to really see how things are - then ask the GP for a blood test to look at oestrogen and FSH levels again and go from there.
Write down all your concerns and questions when you next see your GP - make a double appointment if need be - the anxiety really needs to be addressed.  DG x

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you DG. You speak a lot of sense.

I did try sertraline when I first got this peri anxiety a couple of years ago. I stuck with it for a month but it actually made me much worse, near suicidal. So I swapped to Amitriptyline for 7 months which was calming, but I was still getting a breakthrough of my peri symptoms (though I wasn't taking any HRT with it).

I also tried Mirtrazapine before Xmas, but could only stand it for 10 days then it gave me a horrible anxiety attack (never had one before or since).

I see Annie Evans in 2 weeks and expect her to recommend the gel + Utro which you suggest. If she also recommends a SSRI then I would try it too. I have never tried Citalopram, but am sortied it would affect me like sertraline did?

It's so frustrating when I can feel perfectly well for nearly half the month, then it all goes evil.

[Mary G]

GPL, for the sake of consistency, I thought I would copy over my post from your other thread.

"GPL, really sorry to hear this and I wish I could be more helpful but my opinion is that you are very severely intolerant to synthetic progestins.  The fact that you only feel good on the oestrogen part of HRT says it all.  Also, it is worth remembering that synthetic progestins in particular (more than Utrogestan for example) have a very long half life and stay in your system for a long time, far longer than it says in the patient information leaflet.

I can only guess that you feel terrible because synthetic progestins interfere with the brain receptors which is why I get silent migraines, you feel the way you do and other women get dreadful depression, headaches and very low mood.  I know that some women get on fine with synthetic progestins and don't have any problems at all but if you are severely intolerant, this stuff is lethal.  Synthetic progestins are nothing like the progesterone you produce yourself and for some reason, it is far more difficult for drug companies to replicate than oestrogen.  Utrogestan is better but still not the real deal.

Sorry I can't be of more help."

I would now add that the problem is made worse by the fact that you are clearly intolerant to your own progesterone too.  I think Dr. Evans will be able to help with this and might suggest you shut off our own hormones altogether.  At the very least, I think she will put you on Oestrogel and Utrogestan. 

[Clovie]

Oh dear 
You sound very much to be where I was over a week ago. I had awful awful anxiety (have had it on and off, usually cyclically, like real bad PMS, for the last few months). You sound like you're struggling, and wondering what has caused you to feel like this , and not understanding why when you've stopped what you thought was your culprit.
It does sound to me like your own prog is causing your issues now.  I so totally sympathise as I suffer likewise (am intolerant of all progs to a greater or lesser extent) and I share your frustration at not being able to pinpoint 'WHY'  you feel like this

I finally threw myself at the mercy of the doc last week regarding my anxiety. He prescribed a low does of amitriptyline (I didn't want SSRIs or Mirtazepine) and I changed to oestrogel instead of oral oestrogen tablets, to see if it might be low oestrogen which was making me feel so bad.

Anyhoo- three days later I feel better and better - and lo and behold a period appeared yesterday!!!!   
 I therefore deduce it was my own prog causing me issues, as cannot credit either the oestrogel or the Amiyripyline with success after only 2 days use.

I just hope my own tale of feeling similarly bewildered  might offer you some comfort somehow, I do sincerely hope you get an answer and solution to feeling like that, as fun it is not!!  x

[Kathleen]

Hello GypsyRoseLee.

So sorry you are still suffering and sending hugs. If it's any consolation ( and I know it isn't really lol) but us older women who are post meno are also bewildered by this hormonal hell).

I am currently okay in the  mornings then the anxiety and jitters begin to creep in around lunchtime and loiter until late evening. I am using a 50 mcg patch but haven't had a period in over 5 years so what is causing these fluctuations? I wish I knew!

I can only send my sympathy and hope that Annie Evans can help you resolve your problems.

Take care.

K.

[Ljp]

I am new to HRT only three months, using mirena could and oestrogel, along with local oestrogen for bladder related problem.

I started on one pump oestrogel, then after first six weeks, my GP suggested I up it to two pumps, after a week I felt awful! Jittery, anxiety worse than ever, also flat and lethargic.

I kept with the two pumps for a further two weeks, but then reduced back to one pump, which gas calmed things (and me) down again, I definitely think I am sensitive to oestrogen.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Wise words MaryG.

Presumably I have always been intolerant of my own progesterone, hence the lifetime of PMS and having had PND?

As a very interesting aside, I have recently read that Prof Studd and his team were able to artificially induce PND symptoms in women, after they gave birth, by administering high doses of synthetic progesterone to them. They immediately started suffering with anxiety, depression and insomnia symptoms.

But it was only the women who had a previous history of PMS who reacted like this to the sudden progesterone. When.high doses were given to the women with no history of PMS, they didn't develop PND symptoms.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you Clovie. It does help to know that other people do understand and 'get' how dreadful this can make you feel.

I got on well with Amitriptyline, but I agree it won't have kicked in this quickly. So it's obvious that the arrival of your period has brought relief and lifted your mood again. I don't think you're on any HRT at the moment either are you? So you must have been reacting so strongly to your own progesterone.

Can you become less and less tolerant of your own progesterone as you go into peri then?

I have a horrible feeling that my mood won't improve until sometime next week when my own oestrogen will be on the rise (assuming my own cycle is still loosely running to schedule?).

I must admit I do feel a bit better now, having arrived home. It was a really bad idea to go away to a strange place, strange roads and hotel rooms when I was feeling so anxious and on edge. I do think it really amplified my symptoms. Didn't help that I had to do all the driving too, as DH hurt his wrist just before we left.

But I don't think this reprieve will last. I will have to endure until the synth progesterone has fully left my system, plus my own progesterone falls, and my own oestrogen starts to rise.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you Kathleen, you're always so kind.

I can't understand why you are currently fine during the morning only to feel worse as the day progresses? Are you fine when you wake too, as opposed to the meerkat waking?

I do 'get' the feeling better late in the evening though, as I am just the same when I have anxiety/low mood. Generally I can count on feeling much better from around 9pm in the evening until I go to bed. Does anyone know why this is? Is it connected to feeling sleepy which surpresses the anxiety?

Also, if I wake in the small hours I feel perfectly calm.and normal. But if I wake after 5am then within a few minutes of waking I can feel the jitters and anxiety swelling.

Why is the 'time' of day such a factor?

[Kate50]

Go out and buy some homeopathic  aconite from Holland and Barratt it will come in 30 c just take it every hour during the day till you feel better and then only take it when you feel you need it and then stop again. I use a high potency one for my palpitations due to the problems with progesterone.  Aconite is for shock in any form.  Have a go it won't do anything if you dont need it. Been using homeopathy for 17 yrs

[Hurdity]

Hi again GypsyRoseLee

I answered on your other thread - I didn't see this one - but I won't copy it over as it's long 

Hormones have diurnal rhythms ie day/night cycles so we will feel different throughout the day. I am opposite to you but for different reasons - I feel very sleepy and tired in the morning and sometimes quite groggy, and sometimes this lasts until well past midday if I'm unlucky - I am at my most alert in the late afternoon evening (until I get tired again late evening) - and I presume this is due to some sort of cycle of either thyroid or blood sugar or even absorption of oestrogen from patch?

Luckily I never feel anxiety or jitters as such although I worry about plenty of stuff as I think we all do. It helps to be post-menopausal and not to be taking any medication whatsoever and having all "natural" HRT - so keeps things more or less on an even (if boring) keel!

Hope you feel better soon and good luck with Annie Evans

Hurdity  x

[GypsyRoseLee]

That's interesting Hurdity.

I have noticed that since being on the progesterone part of Femoston that I have been more tired than usual, and feeling quite groggy first thing in the morning. But at least I do sleep well during the night.

[skkb]

Hurdity, what is a 'natural' hormone.......is Sandrena a natural one? Which is a natural progesterone? Sorry, not at all sure

[Hurdity]

 skkb - sorry I shouldn't have used that term - it was shorthand for what I usually write and I put in quotes to show that I didn't mean natural in the way most people think. I wrongly assumed everyone would know what I meant as it's been discussed a lot on here!

I used natural rather than bio-identical because of the confusion re American/Australian compounded Bio-identical Hormone Replacement Therapy which we don't really have in UK unless you look hard for it and pay a lot of money!

Here is what Dr Currie says about "natural" oestrogen:

http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/oestrogens.php

The estrogens used in HRT are referred to as "natural" because they resemble substances produced in the body and include oestradiol, oestrone and oestriol which are usually made from soya beans or yam extracts.

Basically "natural" estradiol = bio-identical = the same molecular structure as the hormone we produce in our bodies, but of course it has to be manufactured from the raw materials in a factory like any other medication or supplement (except for dried herbs!).

HRT made from pregnant horse urine (all the types beginning with PRE) is also "natural" but not bio-identcial ie the oestrogens also include some not found in our body.

"Natural" progesterone = bio-identical progesterone - and is available on NHS as utrogestan. It is exactly the same stuff as commercial companies put in progesterone cream - but the latter is at a lower dose and not strong enough for HRT.

If you look at the HRT preparation under oestrogens and progestogens (Treatments tab at top) you will see them all listed. Sandrena contains estradiol so is "natural" oie bio-identical as are most of the others.

Most progestogens which are used are synthetic though - as you will see from the list.

Hope this helps and apologies for being lazy and not explaining in full! There was a thread recently on bioidenticals with some links. Hope you're getting on OK and enjoying your trip

Hurdity x