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[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you motherbean.

I'm really struggling at the moment. It's been 4 days since I stopped the combi tabs but I still feel awful, and I don't understand why?

We've been away for a couple of days and I haven't enjoyed a minute of it, my anxiety is so bad. I have just endured it. The only relief was when I had a splitting headache yesterday, which somehow stopped the anxiety getting through?

I can't wait to get home. Can't understand why I'm feeling this bad having been back on the oestrogen only tabs for 4 days now? However if my own cycle is still fairly stable then this would be the week before my period, so don't know if that is the problem? Too much of my own progesterone at the moment.

Since starting Femoston the only time I have felt 'normal' has been for roughly 7-10 days during the 2nd week of the oestrogen only tabs, and I felt great. But otherwise it has been a dreadful experience overall, no better than before U took HRT.

I am also feeling queasy much of the time too.

Can anyonr ake head or tail of what's happening to me? I'd be very grateful.

[Mary G]

GPL, really sorry to hear this and I wish I could be more helpful but my opinion is that you are very severely intolerant to synthetic progestins.  The fact that you only feel good on the oestrogen part of HRT says it all.  Also, it is worth remembering that synthetic progestins in particular (more than Utrogestan for example) have a very long half life and stay in your system for a long time, far longer than it says in the patient information leaflet. 

I can only guess that you feel terrible because synthetic progestins interfere with the brain receptors which is why I get silent migraines, you feel the way you do and other women get dreadful depression, headaches and very low mood.  I know that some women get on fine with synthetic progestins and don't have any problems at all but if you are severely intolerant, this stuff is lethal.  Synthetic progestins are nothing like the progesterone you produce yourself and for some reason, it is far more difficult for drug companies to replicate than oestrogen.  Utrogestan is better but still not the real deal. 

Sorry I can't be of more help.

[Milamam]

Sorry you are not feeling well, GRL. Could it be you have too much estrogen at this point of the cycle? Nausea was one of my symptoms of too much estrogen, also anxiety, irritability, despair. Do you feel bloated, heavy, jittery? It is really hard to tell because symptoms of low and high estrogen are so similar. It will be really helpful to you if you GP test you to see where are you in terms of hormones. Remember estrogen rises just before a period to drop again when a bleed starts. So it could be this rise that causes uneasiness.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you MaryG.

I started a new thread, where I'm having a right whinge about this.

I think you must be right and that the synth progesterone from the 2/10 is still in my system. But for how long for, for God's sake? Either that, or I'm suffering from the withdrawal of progesterone? Either way it is evil stuff. I wonder if my dreadful headache last night was somehow connected?

It's soul destroying as there's nothing I can do but sit it out.

Looking back in my diary, I seem to have got on okay with Utrogestan, even taking 200mg for 11 days. But there were issues several days after stopping it. I only want it for the bsre minimum time possible.

And, it's yet another trip away ruined by my bloody moods.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Not sure Milamam?

If my own cycle is running fairly regular in the background still, then my own oestrogen would be very low this week with my period due over the weekend.

If I was going to react to too much oestrogen I would have thought it would have been during the second week of the pack, when my own oestrogen would have been at its highest. But, both months, that was when I felt great for a good week or so.

So, that would indicate that it's more oestrogen that my body needs/likes, I think? But I'm too scared to add more oestrogen or do anything new right now, as I just feel too anxious.

But I am so confused by my own body right now.

[Lizab]

I can't speak about most of this, but during one of my worst spells of anxiety, I hit my knee on something, and the excruciating pain seemed to turn off that consuming anxiety for a few hours. I think even when our brains are forced into overdrive with these hormonal imbalances, they can still prioritize what real threats are. I have a friend with some mental issues that cuts herself, and I never understood that practice until that happened with my knee. I'm not recommending inflicting pain on yourself! I just think it's interesting how our minds and bodies work.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Hi Lizab

I don't think I've ever had such a splitting headache as last night, I could barely open my eyes (but it wasn't a migraine). But, bizarrely as the pain started to recede I had this lovely sense of relief because the anxiety was held at bay too.

I've never understood self harm either (I have a friend who does it too when she's very stressed) but I guess the physical pain overides the psychological pain?

[Hurdity]

Hi GypsyRoseLee

I was away at the weekend and again out today so only just caught up with this thread and sorry to hear you are struggling still.

Re why you are still feeling bad even though you stopped the progesterone 4 days ago - this is the problem with any HRT for anyone who has suffered pms (the classic type just before the period - not the progesterone intolerance kind which lasts almost the whole of the two weeks of the second part of the cycle.

I think what happens is that we react differently to different aspects of the whole hormonal cycle.

So - pms - what is it caused by?

Oestrogen dip Some women react to the sudden drop in oestrogen just after ovulation and again the few days before the period when it is at its lowest - this causing low mood and anxiety and headaches amongst other things. HRT aims to prevent this dip by giving you a stable background dose of oestrogen. Trouble is it is sometimes not enough, but then when you try to increase the dose to gvie you enough at this point - you can end up getting too much at mid cycle ( temporarily) - which is why the CCP can be recommended - to avoid this.

Progesterone withdrawal - I call this classic pmt - which happens when the progesterone falls before the period and which triggers the bleed. Progesterone causes physiological changes in the cells and body's biological processes (to enable us to grow a baby) which are then reversed when levels fall. It is this reversal which can cause the pmt symptoms of tension, headaches, irritability, rage etc. I would suggest most women get this to some extent

Progesterone intolerance - women who suffer from this get unpleasant symptoms for the whole of the two weeks - ie presumably are over-sensitive to the physiological changes produced by the action of progesterone. We probably all experience a gradual build up of tiredness, or bloating during the third week - but only some women experience this severely to such an extent that they become depressed, fatigued, foggy headed, and suffer headaches for the whole time.

Those who are really unlucky suffer from the effects of all three!

The problem with HRT is that (especially on the combi patches) you have two weeks of full-on progestogen, followed by the few days of withdrawal which is maybe 17 -18 days in total. In the normal cycle the withdrawal phase is pre-menstrual and the whole progesterone rise and fall (including withdrawal) happens in 14 days. Do you see what I mean? - so the extra three days is stolen from the oestrogen only supposedly feel good stage - and then you have the bleed - leaving maybe 6 or 7 good days per month!

I totally agree it is absurdly one-size fits all but firstly I presume commercial considerations limit the variety of products available, and the NHS can't afford to scan everyone. It is undoubtedly true that many of us could cope with less progesterone and there is an urgent need for research into vaginal use of utrogestan at different doses and with different oestrogen doses and I wonder if anything like this is being carried out. Cynically I don't think so because there isn't any money in it

That was a bit of a long answer.... to say that your feelings may well be because you are still in the pre-menstrual withdrawal phase which normally happens before a period in the normal menstrual cycle, just because you have suddenly stopped the prog.

Also I used to get migraines every time I withdrew from Cyclogest (interesting link Night_Owl - but she was comparing vaginal Cyclogest with oral Utrogestan - perhaps she should also try vaginal utrogestan?). So the headache would start to come on several hours during the day after the first missed dose - and then last for 3 days - after which the tension and fatigue would disappear and I would feel OK again. I still get migraines now sometimes - but not necessarily to do with the progesterone - and they always follow the same pattern and last for 3 days and have to run their course - even when the pain has gone and it's just niggling there - I have the heavy head, fatigue, slight nausea for three days - so might this be what you are experiencing following your headache? The relief I felt after the three days was amazing - I couldn't believe how well I felt compared to how awful previously.

I hope this is in some way helpful even if it doesn't actually suggest anything you can do to feel better - and I hope you manage to enjoy the rest of your few days away

I've yet to take my 7 days of the dreaded U lol!  You aren't making it easy! ! Seriously though if this doesn't work for me I will be trying a homeopathic route I have used it in the past and it has worked for me.  It's a case of shedding the lining doesn't have to be progesterone that does it?? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Most definitely yes - only by taking progesterone to change the womb lining from proliferative (growing) to secretory (changing it structurally to get ready for implantation) and then withdrawing the prog - will the lining be shed properly. It can also shed randomly if it gets too thick from too much oestrogen so that it comes away - but that is abnormal bleeding and can mean you already have endometrial hyperplasia which is not what you want. You have to have progesterone to have secretory endometrium (womb lining). Homeopathy will do nothing at all. If you took it and your lining was shed it will only be due to one of the above (over-thickening due to too much oestrogen, or progesterone withdrawal)

Sorry folks if this is too long - I got carried away with rambling thoughts again!

Hurdity

[Lizab]

I'm not familiar with the doses and forms that you've tried, but in thinking back on my own experience. I had anxiety and irritability growing for quite some time before my periods stopped. I used to laugh at what an irritable bitch I was with everything grating my nerves. When my period stopped coming for months at a time was when the anxiety became debilitating. I wonder now if estrogen had been dropping for awhile, but really bottomed out enough to stop my periods, and increased the anxiety. Maybe you really haven't been getting enough estrogen and that's making your progesterone sensitivity worse, as in you're barely getting by on the E and when you add in the P it counteracts that "barely enough" level of E. Maybe give it another couple weeks of E only?

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you Hurdity, a really informative reply as always. I have always suffered with classic PMS since being 12. But about 4 years ago I started to suffer with the more serious progesterone intolerance, because my PMS started to begin just after ovulation and lasting right through until about day 4 of my period.

Last month, when I finished my first pack of 1/10, I felt awful all the way through the progesterone tabs, and for 3 days after finishing them. Then I had 2 good days, followed by a further awful 3 days, before my mood really lifted and stabilised for the next 10 days.

This month, because I'd only taken 5 days of progesterone I thought I'd bounce back almost immediately? Obviously not.

[GypsyRoseLee]

I've been wondering that too lizab? And is that why I have only felt 'good' during the middle of the oestrogen only tabs of Femoston, because my own oestrogen will have been adding to the oestrogen in the tabs?

I started Femoston on the same day I had my last natural period, so I know (roughly) how my own cycle is corresponding to where I am on the Femoston.

[Kathleen]

Hello ladies.

Hurdity - I agree that the one size fits all approach is unhelpful and it saddens me that for most of us our options are limited.

 I read an article written by a well known author who consulted a private doctor when her menopause struck. She said  she felt sorry for other women who were only offered the standard treatments and would probably ‘ have to
make do  with patches‘.

We are all different, if only we were treated as such!

Wishing you all well ladies.

K.