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Author Topic: In Search of Ideas.  (Read 4394 times)

Kathleen

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In Search of Ideas.
« on: January 23, 2016, 06:37:34 PM »

Hello ladies I want to pick your brains and ask for suggestions please.

I have been using HRT in tablet or patch form since May 2013, my last period was September 2010. No matter what type of oestrogen or progesterone I use I have endured the jitters most days. One lady said that she felt like she had swallowed a vibrating mobile phone and I think that is a pretty accurate description!

I am so sick of feeling this way and when I read the side effects of the Evorel Conti patch that I am using the leaflet mentioned palpitations, nausea, nervousness, irritability etc. In other words, everything I'm experiencing and have been experiencing since I began taking oestrogen three years ago.

My question is ladies, as I was three years post meno when I began HRT could my problems be due to the oestrogen? Am I in fact taking more of this hormone than I was used to and should I now lower my patch from 50 mcg or increase the progesterone?

I accept that oestrogen is the feel good hormone but should I now naturally be on a lower amount and is the HRT dose actually giving me problems? Having said that I began HRT because of severe jitters and they went after two weeks so I assumed I needed the extra oestrogen at the time.

I admit that lowering oestrogen is probably a crazy idea but I am so tired of dealing with the same old problems day to day that I  am clutching at straws!

I value your opinions and experiences ladies and I look forward to reading your comments.

Wishing you all well and take care.

K.
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dazned

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2016, 07:24:05 PM »

Some ladies do report on here that they feel " wired " and jittery on too high a dose of estrogen,so I guess like anything else in this hrt lark ,try a lower dose and see if you improve after a couple of months,thats all you can do really else you will never know . ;)
I stopped my hrt 2 months ago to see where I m at,no significant bad symptoms yet to report.
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Kathleen

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 07:46:49 PM »

Hello dazned and thank you for your reply.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that some women feel 'wired' on too higher dose of oestrogen. Also some report that they find progesterone calming so I'm wondering if my HRT  balance is wrong and always has been.

You must be pleased that coming off HRT hasn't been a problem so far. Long may it continue eh!

Take care.

K.
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dazned

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 07:49:14 PM »

Yes fingers crossed,I wouldn't say I feel great but its no different than when I was on hrt this time around !  ;)
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Kathleen

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2016, 08:03:05 PM »

Hello again dazned.

I've just seen your post on another thread where you say the jitters and anxiety were your main problems. Can I ask why you have stopped using HRT?

Take care.

K.
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CLKD

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2016, 08:06:16 PM »

 :bighug:
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dazned

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2016, 09:17:26 PM »

Because I couldn't find one that worked for me after my first hrt of (5/6years) stopped doing its thing!
Anxiety,palpitations ,panic attacks all came back tried quite a few new ones to no avail but I'm in the minority I think who believes that hrt is brilliant for physical symptoms but not so good with other type  ;)
Despite seeing a great private consultant I never felt good this time around. Started on mirtazapine last march which knocked all the anxiety,palps,etc on the head so trying to see if it continues to work after stopping hrt .
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Kathleen

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 09:10:27 AM »

Hello dazned and thank you for taking the time to reply.

Sorry to bother you again but I do have another question. Did you ever have good days on HRT? I ask because I have some days when I feel much better and actually believe the patch is working but then the flushing, palpitations etc begin again for a while  before I have another good spell. Your comments have made me wonder if mirtazapine would be something that I should try?

Once again thanks for your help and wishing you a good day.

K.

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Hurdity

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2016, 11:32:48 AM »

Hello Kathleen - I disagree with comments about high dose of oestrogen.

I have commented before to you about what might be causing your feelings - there was another thread about the jitters which I'm not sure whether you started?

Anyway I will say it again.

Firstly the patch you are on (50 mcg) is not by any stretch of the imagination a high dose of oestrogen. It is a medium dose and will correspond (if you absorb it properly) to the oestrogen levels in the first or second half of the cycle, excluding the ovulatory peak. Aside from how different we all are, and that you are replacing your oestrogen through external means, it is very unlikely that this dose is too high that it is causing the jitters - especially as you have been on it sometime. it is the standard post-menopausal dose which should if possible relieve symptoms.

My view is that your feelings are either due to the continuous progestogen or oestrogen is too low.

I have said before and it is well known by gynaecologists that the consequence of taking continuous progestogens and especially the synthetic ones like norethisterone such as in Evorel conti, is the possibility of continuous low grade progestogenic side effects, of which depression, nervousness and headaches are some examples ( and listed under the product info). This could explain all your symptoms.  This is the penalty of a no-bleed regime. Many women ( including some on here) not surprisingly find they don't feel too good on the whole patch and mistakenly believe they should cut down on the oestrogen - so cut the patch in half - and sometimes feel a bit better. Well this is because they are getting half the dose of progrestgoen - but unfortunately half the dose of oestrogen too!

Unless you are generally a nervous jittery type of person or have issues in your life or have had throughout your life that make you feel like this, that are not hormonally related I would very strongly suggest you do not go down the AD route at all until you have tried different types of HRT. I mean it would be counter-productive to take HRT and then take something else to counter the side effects from it - notwithstanding your experience dazned and that you feel better under your regime - which is great :)

Many of us put up with a bleed for this very reason. Also if you take separate progestogen and oestrogen you can then adjust the oestrogen as required until you find the dose that suits you. As you are post-menopausal your hormones levels should be stable so it should be easy to find the right dose and product to help you to function without these negative days. I doubt whether synthetic progrestogens are ever calming but in low doses some women seem to find this on Utrogestan ( "natural" progesterone) - unless they are sensitive to all types of progestogen.

I know you asked this question of dazned but I have used Estradot 50 mcg for almost the whole of the last 9 years since starting HRT in late peri-menopause and have never had any of the feelings you describe - apart from what you expect to feel in normal life's ups and downs. The only bad days I have (that can be attributed to HRT) are at some point sometimes on the Progesterone part of the cycle ( I take 200 mg vaginally so quite a high dose) and if I get a migraine.
The other thing is I have started taking norethisterone once a year to "strip" my lining - as recommended by my gynae GP - admittedly much higher dose than HRT and it is the only thing I take orally - but I have noticed flushes returning towards the end of taking it.

There seems to be a phenomenon whereby some strong progestogens interfere with the beneficial effect of oestrogen on the brain and on some of the symptoms oestrogen should alleviate - and I remember reading about this somewhere - apologies for forgetting where - so the continuous synthetic progestogens could be doing this in your situation meaning you would need a higher dose of oestrogen than you would normally need. As Evorel conti comes as a combi patch there is no way of adjusting this.

Please do give these suggestions a try eg continuous utrogestan or trying a cycle! You may be pleasantly surprised. Oh btw the downside of a cycle aside from the bleeding is obviously your prog goes up and down but those of us who do this feel it is preferable to having the continuous sdie effects....

Oh I got carried away agin but hope this helps  ::)

Hurdity x


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Kathleen

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2016, 01:15:53 PM »

Hello Hurdity and many thanks for your informative post.

I am coming round to the idea of trying a different HRT regime, I just hope I can talk my non expert GPs into letting me try something more complicated that may necessitate regular scans. All more expense for the surgery I guess.

I got  the idea that the oestrogen in the patch was a problem because the list of side effects matched my experience. In your opinion could they be due to the effects of the progesterone in the patch? As you know Evorel Conti include Norethisterone but I didn't think flushing and palpitations etc were listed as side effects.

I am also confused because I have good days, where I feel upbeat and calm and I wonder why that is when I've changed nothing.

I will go away and give it all more thought. It's exhausting isn't it, especially when you are tired and worried.

Once again I value your comments and thanks for taking the time to reply.

Take care.

K.
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Taz2

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2016, 01:23:28 PM »

I decided to stop HRT three weeks before Christmas (oestrogen only) as my anxiety was creeping up and I felt constantly jittery. I also had stomach pain frequently and felt generally unwell. Before going onto oestrogen only HRT I was convinced that it was the progesterone which caused these feelings in me.

Well, six weeks on I can report that the anxiety has almost disappeared. There are no more jittery feelings. The stomach pain (like period cramps but obviously not as I haven't got a uterus) have improved by over fifty percent and I've lost six lbs and no longer have that bloated feeling. The downside is that my hot flushes/sweats are beginning to return and my pelvic floor is feeling heavier plus more bladder issues. Also my skin is really dry and the muscle aches are beginning to make themselves felt again.

The reason I was allowed to re-start HRT at the age of 61 (having been taken off it at 59 due to almost reaching "that" age)  was because it was beneficial to pelvic floor strength and following my hyster in July 2014 for prolapses it's important to keep the strength there due to the real possibility of the vaginal vault prolapsing next as the uterus is no longer there to hold it up.

I'm glad that I tried without HRT just to see whether the anxiety and constantly tense feelings were down to the oestrogen but I didn't really believe that they were. I feel that I will have to go back onto HRT in order to be more comfy in the nether regions and also to get a good night's sleep (well a better nights sleep anyway!) than I'm getting now but I am not looking forward to becoming anxious again. Before I stopped using it the flushes were creeping in a little so my doc agreed to up my dose to Estradot 75 but I feel this would make me feel worse so will stick with the Estradot 50.

Taz x
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Kathleen

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 02:18:38 PM »

Hello Taz2 and thank you for posting.

 I understand that oestrogen is supposed to be the calming hormone but maybe for some of us it is less calming than for others?  I've also read posts from women who say they feel better on the progesterone part of their sequential HRT.

As is often said on the forum, we are all different but the fact that we are struggling with similar issues means all knowledge and experience is valuable and I thank you for taking the time to comment.

Take care.

K.



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dazned

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 05:16:05 PM »

Kathleen you are so right ,what works for one etc........ ;)

I can tell you what works for me

Joe Blogs can say what works for them

But at the end of the day its what works for you !


Iam 56 post meno so levels shouldn't be fluctuating but I still couldn't get the right dose/type for me.
I was on a long cycle i.e. estrogen only for 10 weeks then utrogeston for 12 days,I wasnt even good on the estrogen only bit which according to the science of it I should have been ! Go figure ,the wonders of the human body.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 05:21:57 PM by dazned »
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Mary G

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2016, 06:18:41 PM »

I definitely agree that one size does not fit all and what works for one person will not necessarily work for another.  You could line up 10 post menopausal women with no underlying health issues, give them all exactly the same dose of everything and their reactions, symptom control, womb lining build up, blood levels of oestrogen etc. will all be different.  That's why it's better to have a regime that allows for flexibility in the dose.

I can only go by my own experiences and would say that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" but I can say that all my problems with HRT regimes has been linked to the synthetic progestin part, not the oestrogen.  Having looked again at my extensive records, all the problems I have had are when I am taking synthetic progestins and the symptoms are low mood, silent migraines, water retention, constipation and breast pain.  Some of the synthetic progestins have a long half life and hang around in your system for a long time after you finish taking them and that is worth noting. 

I now take 100mg Utrogestan for 7 days each month and apart from some slight water retention which is probably normal with a period, I don't get any problems as long as I split the gel dose (1 pump every 12 hours) to keep the oestrogen levels up.

I know that many women take oral/patch synthetic, continous combined HRT and are very happy with it and if that is the case, definitely carry on with it but for those who are having problems with synthetic progestins, I would recommend they change to a transdermal oestrogen (patch or gel) and Utrogestan taken vaginally. 

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Taz2

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Re: In Search of Ideas.
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2016, 06:33:13 PM »

I just find it really frustrating that having finally been given the go ahead to use HRT for the foreseeable future at the age of almost 62 it's not making me feel great! One set of symptoms without it and a different set with it!

Taz x
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