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[Mary G]

peegeetip, I found your posts very interesting and have had some very similar thoughts myself.  There was an article in the Daily Mail recently that suggested it would be a good idea for women to start taking oestrogen in their forties to combat menopausal problems - did anyone else read it?  It more or less agreed with your ideas and also GipsyRoseLee's and I too think it has to be the way forward.  If women follow this route and are still suffering from depression, then they need to take ADs.

The million women study got it all wrong and was discredited because too many women started taking HRT too late and on high doses of progesterone in particular - how much damage did that flawed study do to women?  I have read on numerous occasions that HRT has to be taken as soon as perimenopause symptoms kick in to avoid too much damage being done.  There is also another theory that gradual introduction of oestrogen at an early age actually helps to prevent breast cancer, not cause it. 

Regarding women that sail though the menopause; perhaps they do sail through at the beginning and don't have hot flushes (I never had those either) but what about problems that they might experience later on?  My mother didn't have any problems until she was 51 but later on, she developed high blood pressure, she hasn't had a full night's sleep for over 30 years which has led to depression, she has had two hip replacements, curvature of the spine and her cognitive skills are not as good as my father's even though they are the same age.  Had she taken HRT, I wonder what difference it could have made?  I don't want to take the risk.

It is fair to say that not all women get on with HRT and some don't want to take it which is fine because it is a personal choice but what about the thousands that do want to take it and either can't get hold of it or are simply put off?  I love the Estrogel and get on very, very well with it but I am severely progesterone intolerant (still trying to resolve that issue but the problem is the progesterone pushes the oestrogen levels too low) but even taking that into account, I would not stop taking HRT because I feel the advantages heavily outweigh the disadvantages.

This is a specialised field of expertise and GPs training in this area is scant which does not help.  The last time I saw my GP it turned out that I knew more about HRT and the menopause than she did! 

[honeybun]

And what about the thousands.....and more that don't need it and are fine for the rest of their natural life's.
It's like statins.....so many for and so many against....should we...well only if we want to.

To say that the divorce in older women is mainly down to meno is frankly rediculous. Many couples after the children have flown the nest discover there is nothing left in a relationship so move on....nowt to do with hormones.

Another post in another thread said some were evangelical with regard to HRT. It was hotly denied.

Well if ever there was an evangelical post with regard to HRT then this was it.

I have quite a few friends that I am close enough to know the truth....and yes they are sailing through.

Women generally arrive at this forum because of problems.......does that make us a true representation of all women......I really don't think so....otherwise we would not be here....would we.


Honeyb
X

[thorntrees]

Agree with you HB, surely we don't want another debate about HRT being the only way forward . It really doesn't help those of us who simply cannot take it. We all have to find a way to help ourselves through this stage of our lives and sharing experiences is great, and having a place to come and moan when things are not going well is a blessing. If there really was just one answer to the menopause we would all be doing it and this site would not be needed.

Thorntrees

[Hurdity]

MaryG - is this the article
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2800760/should-women-hrt-menopause-experts-say-s-best-way-ease-symptoms-avoid-long-term-health-problems.html

It covers the issues of depression that  you mention and which was the subject of the original post (I havent yet had time to listen to the excerpt from the radio programme).

I think the point about some women "sailing" through and not being on the forum, is interesting - because as pointed out, those who do not have the traditional symptoms of flushes and sweats at the time of their periods becoming irregular and variable - could be more likely to overlook and be overlooked by doctors regarding symptoms that are a consequence of oestrogen deficiency

In fact I am glad I suffered flushes and sweats to such an extent that I couldn't cope! It means that I made damn sure I read a lot about menopause and hormones and have been able to ensure I have been treated before any long term health problems become apparent.

Many of those women who "sailed through menopause" may still get VA, osteoporosis, cardio-vascular disease, low mood, chronic fatigue, joint pains etc etc but not attribute these to oestrogen or testosterone deficiency, and will be treated by GPs according to each individual symptom, and maybe too late for a hormone solution.

I think the general consensus amongst the medical profession (see the gynaes quoted in DM article for a start) now is that HRT is definitely beneficial for a certain number of years provided it is started within  a few years of menopause, and unless contra-indicated by certain medical conditions.

Re depression and hormones - such a lot of joined up thinking is needed and it's a pity that physiology, gynaecology and psychiatry cannot be unified in some universities/medical schools so that this dichotomy (is that the right spelling?) of approaches can be prevented.

Hurdity x

[Mary G]

Good post Hurdity and yes, that's the article I was referring to!

[dazned]

I have been on hrt for 7 years since I was 49 but I have now started having fatigue,terrible painful joints and low moods and that's despite estrogen and testosterone,it really is a minefield . 

[peegeetip]

A few great posts there.

Just as a followup on the divorce being related to this topic.

The figures don't lie.

The main reason for getting divorced in this "peri/meno" age range is noted as "behaviour" related! Not Adultery.

In terms of myself in the peri years, my behaviour became erratic, self centered and down right nasty at times.
Empowerment, sure I was empowered not to give a stuff about my DH or family at the worst times.
My DH and family suffered before I moved forward with HRT.
That is my view and experience, far be it from me to push that on anyone else.

The reason for my abandon? My hormones were completely off and I was suffering!

If others can't see this being a cause then I can help that.

Sorry others feel they cant take HRT for various reasons. However looking at posts on MM, a lot of those "not allowed" to take HRT seem to be basing this view on varied, scant and often inaccurate information provided by a series of people who should know better.

This is often without even going to the extent of proper testing from the docs to prove genetics or other issues that may stop them. Just because a relative had a type of cancer does not mean your prone to it also or you should be denied any treatment. Sorry for anyone who's experienced this in their families also.
Its a vague and not very helpful way to put people off and prevent them enjoying a potential solution that may need the help of HRT badly.

I'm not asking anyone to take HRT but the balance of facts seems to indicate in terms of depressed / anxious ladies in their peri/meno year are missing their hormones. Depression and anxiety are key factors stated when most peoples relationships start going south.

For me, I ran things close, and nearly lost my DH. I see now what I put him through and frankly if others don't see that's a prime problem in a lot of peri/meno years then I'm not going to worry too much about it.

Certainly not saying we cant survive without HRT. We ladies are complex though and if you take parts of us away then we don't work the same, simple biology and due to that we often loose our sense of self and who we are in there too.

Unfortunately the loss of function in our ovaries is often followed by reduction in function of our thyroid. Which can explain why even when we are on HRT things start to change in other ways, fatigue, painful joints and low moods are all associated with Thyroid too.

http://www.everydayhealth.com/hs/thyroid-pictures/decrease-joint-pain/

 

[honeybun]

I think thorntrees probably said it all.


Honeyb
X

[peegeetip]

"surely we don't want another debate about HRT being the only way forward"

Where did I say that? There has to be dialogue each way for a debate to happen anyway

When I initially went to the doc I was refused and told I couldn't have it too.

Had I blindly believed the doc then I'd have probably lost my husband, be estranged from my kids and holed up in a flat somewhere I could not afford.

Hi Thorntree, from your earlier post you said "No chance of HRT  given age etc".
Sorry you think like that but there are ultra low options now to allow ladies who are late in starting a chance.
The whi tests that are now much maligned were on ladies of around your age (avg 63 years) however they gave them "full dose" HRT and not the HRT's that are available now.
Going from nothing to a full high dose HRT for any of us is not to be advised even with newer forms of estrogens available now.

However gently introducing the ultra low dose back in would be a safe and controlled means to start to try to alleviate some of your problems. Its up to you though. We can only talk about the facts and where they fit in with each of us.
If docs can't help due to outdated facts and views then we can only hope that gets better soon.

Wish you well going forward.

[dazned]

Yes if only one size fitted all we'd be laughing !

[honeybun]

Oh well said Grangravy. 

I have felt that for years and I do take HRT.

Everyone but everyone who comes to MM should be supported and not preached at.

I have felt like a bit of a lone voice on occasions when the big guns come out.

I'm ever so glad you are with us on the forum and hopefully we will be able to support you in your choices with out frightening the bejesus out of you....or anyone else for that matter.

I'm going to duck now 


Honeyb
X

[Hurdity]

Rebelyell!

I listened to the debate! It was good to hear the discussion about hormonally induced depression - thanks for posting this and Taz for the link! Such an importnat issue to be aired.

Why can't people discuss the subject of hrt without getting all worked up. It's as bad to try to frighten people into taking hrt, as it is to frighten them off it. I sometimes wonder if people even realise they are doing it.

Sometimes, people can imply something without actually saying the words, for example - I take hrt to protect my heart and bones and avoid serious problems. To some, this is the same as saying if you don't take hrt you will suffer heart disease, osteoporosis, and other serious health problems. Either way the statement should include - in my opinion.

Why and how you choose to treat your menopause is up to you. There is no need to justify it, scare others, or undermine the choices others make. There is certainly no need to imply that anyone who 'sails through it' must be in denial, telling lies, or destined to some terrible health condition in later years.

I read the article Hurdity linked to. The last specialist (who was a fertility expert) said she saw 5 different menopause specialists and got different responses from each of them, proving even menopause specialists have differing views! Her quotes end with her website address which promotes fertility treatments (quite handy for perimenopausal article readers considering the process before it's too late) and a selection of her very own 'pre conception vitamins' (a tad more expensive than off the shelf vitamins!).

Reading the comments below the article you get to see just how different opinions are on the subject, and that's how it should be.

Like thorntree says,

"If there really was just one answer to the menopause we would all be doing it and this site would not be needed."

Feeling a chorus of 'We shall overcome' going on in my head right now 

Hello grangravy -    I see you have just joined this forum. Why don't you introduce yourself in the new members section and tell us something about yourself, where you are in menopause and how we can help you on your menopause journey?

Regarding your post below - we actually do cover a huge range of topics here but I see no implication that those who sail through menopause must be in denial 

The most important thing about the information given on this site by Dr Currie is that it is the most up-to-date scientific and medical information that we have at our fingertips, produced by a leading gynaecologist, and reflects the current state of play of research. The information that women refer to - regarding protection of heart and bones from post-menopausal oestrogen for example, is not a matter of opinion - it is based on scientific evidence - which naturally is updated all the time. No-one is trying to frighten anyone, but it is important that all women are in possession of evidence based information and recommendations which is what many of us are trying to help point the way too - using this site ( ie Menopause Matters) as well as other respected organisations and research. Most new findings and papers are reported on this website in the News Section or Dr Currie or Emma post them on this forum for us to read.

The other thing is - you suggest that observations about the protective benefits of HRT etc should include the words "in my opinion". However as outlined above - much of this is not a matter of opinion, but evidence based. OK interpretation may require a judgement, or explanation - but scientific data are not the same thing as opinion.

You might not have seen the information for members here from the administrator:
http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,8308.0.html

"Members are kindly requested to give references (eg links) to any health/medical information they provide, when it is not personal experience. Personal experience is anything the person has undergone himself/herself.
Information posted by members must be true and correct to their knowledge."

This is why members sometimes ask for links to info (not commercial links though!) provided - to distinguish this from opinion and personal experience.

Once we have access to the latest evidence, information and recommendations, at least that enables us to make an informed choice - and decide what risks we are prepared to take in our choice of treatment. Of course it is all our choice - but it must be made in full possession of the right information. So often GPs are still quoting outdated research, and scaring women into not taking HRT because of a perceived risk (such as family history of stroke) which is not actually contra-indicated. No wonder women are confused and nervous.

No-one has ever said that one size fits all!!!

I hope this clarifies a bit better how things work on the forum and I hope you benefit from the support given and the discussions we have

Hurdity x