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[moonbeam121167]

Hi ladies need some advice on how to use this HRT, I have been trying for over a year to get to try it and would love some help how the best place to put it, also I use moisturizer every day all over plus a false tan.  I have been told to use it twice a day to top up my Estradot 100mcg, I have been on a oral 2mg dose but suffer from real bad headaches and nausea and finally a lovely lady GP today let me try topping up with the gel, yahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh   

[Cassie]

I use mine at night as I get into bed rub on inner thighs, calfs, sometimes inner arms but I just rotate legs, I only use 1 and a teeny bit pumps so one bit of thigh soaks it all in....I would not use it withany other lotions or potions as it needs to get absorbed transdermally.

[moonbeam121167]

Cassie, thanks for your reply, I put my false tan on my legs this morning , I only have put a moisteriser on my arms, shall I wash my arm tonight and wait a while then apply it??

 

[Dancinggirl]

I take a shower and rub myself dry really well. I apply one pump to my inner thighs and allow it to dry for at least 10 mins.  DO NOT USE ANY MOISTURISERS or CREAMS ON YOUR INNER THIGHS BEFORE YOU APPLY THE OESTROGEL OR AFTER FOR ABOUT 2 HOURS.
If you are using an 100gm patch then you are adding a lot of extra oestrogen!!!! I wouldn't use more than one pump of gel per day at the beginning - only increase if absolutely necessary. I get horrid headaches if I use too much oestrogen, I also get flushes - have you tried reducing your dose to see if that helps? DG x

[moonbeam121167]

Dancinggirl, I did try to cut the pills out and I would get bad mood swings, hot flushes , twitches but once I take them again I will be ok again, I may try just one pump at night in the beginning and go from there, just want these headaches and nausea to go xx

[Salad]

Hi 

So hard to get things balanced 

Just wondering, like Dancinggirl, if you're actually a bit high on oestrogen rather than low as you are on a high dose. I have had headaches when I've been high and low but only get the nausea if it's high.

I've struggled to get the right dose but have pretty much succeeded over last few weeks through trial and error. I've been cutting bits off the patch to experiment with getting the dose right for me.

100 patch too much, 75 patch too much, 50 patch too little- so I now cut a slither off 75 patch and it seems ok for now.

What was your 'oestrogen' blood level??

[moonbeam121167]

Can't remember my levels , all I know is when I had them done the meno doctor said they were extremely low and I was on 100mcg patch at the time,  So he told me I need to another 2mg of pill . I know when I stopped the 2mg pill and just had the Estradot 100mcg I would have real bad mood swings, hot flushes but  the headaches would not be as bad and the  nausea would ease, I have been adding 2 pumps but today my mood swings are back so today I put 2 pumps on this morning and tonight I will add another one.  I am not sure what the amount of gel is equivalent to a 2mg pill.

[Dancinggirl]

4 pumps per day is considered the maximum dose to use - you are also using a 100mcg patch!!!! So in other words you are using at least twice the maximum dose of oestrogen. If your levels are still low this is really baffling!!!! Why aren't you absorbing the oestrogen???
As I mentioned before, I got headaches, flushes and nausea when using too much oestrogen so I'm really ordering if this is happening to you.  The problem is if you keep changing the dosage then it's difficult to know what your 'happy' dosage truly is.
AFter a couple of weeks on this dosage I would try to get a blood test done to see where your oestrogen levels are - if your oestrogen level is below 600 on that amount of oestrogen then there is a problem with absorption. If it's above 1000 then your symptoms could be because things are too high. DG x

[moonbeam121167]

Stop my 2mg pill Saturday and has only been using the patch, then Monday my GP gave me the gel to add , I used one pump Monday evening, then Tuesday started 1 in morning and 1 at night been ok until today , I woke up feeling awful again, awful mood swings , so  I changed my patch as it is due today and put 2 pumps of gel on and at the minute I feel sick, feeling real miserable, ratty, quite jittery, really really don't know what to do anymore,  on just the patch I get bad mood swings and hot flushes creep back, why cant I get a happy medium, its not far want to cry   

[Dancinggirl]

This sounds like you've had too big a hit of oestrogen all at once. I think you are chopping and changing too much. If you do one thing one day and something different a couple of days later your body is constantly fluctuating and this will have an effect on everything.
When I went back on HRT 7 months ago my gynae told me to start with one pump of oestrogel for the first two weeks and then increase to 2 pumps per day after that - so to increase slowly to allow my body to adjust.
Have you had at least one whole month on just the patch? If not, then that is what I would do if I were you. You may get some mood changes and some flushes but I don't think one should expect to be completely symptom free even with HRT. After one month of just the patches I would then add one pump per day of oestrogel for one month to see if that improves things.  That way you can let your body adjust and settle and really gage whether things are right or not.
The alternative would be to stop using the patch and just use Oestrogel for a month.  Perhaps start with one pump in the morning and one pump at night for one month to see how you are and then increase if need be.
This is just a suggestion and I can understand you may be worried about reducing the amount of oestrogen but if you aren't absorbing enough oestrogen then something isn't working right and maybe the patches aren't absorbing for you - your oestrogen levels should be really high on a 100mcg patch.  DG x

[moonbeam121167]

Hi Dancinggirl, yes back in Dc 2014 I was on just the 100 mcg patch, and wasn't to bad, just had tiny issue, i:e VA, weight issues, lack of sexual desire. The hospital  meno consultant did a blood test and said my levels were so very low I need to add an extra dose, thats when I have added 2mg pills, but the headaches and nausea are getting too much, but when I stop the added dose and just stick to the patch I start having real bad mood swings, I wuld be real happy just sticking to the patch bad my family hates me my i have the mood swings, why do I have them ?

[Dancinggirl]

Maybe you need to see the specialist again to get to the bolt tom of why your oestrogen levels so low when using such much oestrogen.  VA would probably respond to local oestrogen like Vagifem.  Lack of libido won't necessarily increase with more oestrogen I'm afraid - some women need some Testosterone that sometimes helps but this isn't usually available on the NHS theses days.  Low mood is also difficult to treat - you might need a SRRI to help with that.   Some CBT and Mindful Meditation could help you deal with the mood swings.
Expecting oestrogen to improve all your symptoms is unrealistic. Sometimes it takes a holistic approach that involves oestrogen with an exercise and diet regime together with something like Mindful Meditiation to really reduce the meno symptoms. Keep things simple and perhaps use your patch alone for a couple of weeks and see how you feel and then add one pump of oestrogel per day for two weeks after that and then you can see if this is working.   DG x

[honeybun]

Lots of us have said this before, but again....you are taking too much. Your poor body is getting more oestrogen than is in any way within natural limits. Is it any wonder you are jittery, it's surprising to be honest that you are not bouncing off the ceiling.

No matter what your family think, you need to stop the lot and start again SLOWLY. Go back to basics. I'm sure you can put up with the mood swings for a short while until you get yourself sorted out.
Have a look at these side effects of too much oestrogen and see how many you have.


The signs and symptoms of oestrogen excess may include any of the following:

PMS
Fatigue
Fluid retention and abdominal bloating
Weight gain, especially in lower body which is hard to lose
Mood swings/Weepiness
Depression/Sadness – esp. before a period
Anxiety and irritability – esp. before a period
Insomnia – esp. before a period
Accelerated ageing
Frequent thrush
High blood pressure
Sugar and Carbohydrate craving
Decreased sex drive
Foggy thinking
Dry eyes
Fibroids
Fibrocystic breasts/Breast tenderness
Gall bladder problems
Premenstrual headaches and migraines
Heavy or irregular bleeding
Infertility
Miscarriage – esp. in first trimester
Osteoporosis
Low thyroid function
Abnormal blood clotting
PCOS
Auto-immune disorder (e.g. Lupus)
Breast cancer
Endometriosis
Endometrial cancer (uterine cancer)
In women:

Have a think and maybe seek some more advice from someone else.
Perhaps Dr Currie could help.


Honeybun
X

[Hurdity]

I am sorry to hear you are still suffering moonbeam but pleased you have a doc that does not insist you continue to take tablet HRT when you suffer from headaches and nausea.

Not sure where that list comes from - it does sound rather like it's from a site propounding the oestrogen dominance theory!! Osteoporosis? Oestrogen is given to prevent this! Accelerated ageing - again oestrogen tends to play a part in slowing this - at least in terms of skin and bone and probably many other places. I could go on....  With respect I would take this list with a pinch of salt personally!

I agree moonbeam you need to work out where you are in terms of oestrogen levels. You should have another couple of blood tests and note the time of day, day of the week in relation to gel application and patch change. Only that will tell you if your oestrogen levels are out of the physiological range. Also you might experience some strange symptoms if they are  consistently at the high level we normally experience just before ovulation. Make sure you get a print-out of the tests.

Also phone the doc and ask the receptionist for the past readings (of oestrogen levels) on your records and if you can remember what you were on at the time.

The other thing is when I went to see Dr Annie Evams she said that many women experience symptoms despite increasing oestrogen and in fact what they need is a little testosterone - I think I mentioned this in the past to you because you have had a complete hysterectomy with ovary removal from my recollection? You would need to be referred to a specialist for this and find out if that particular clinic is able to prescribe it (off licence) or perhaps to give you an implant - although that seems a bit drastic? (Just seen Dancinggirl you have suggested this already!)

By the way also re the levels - where do you apply the patch and is that area of skin always clean dry and with no products at all? I apply mine to my bum cheeks and only use ordinary shower gel which is well rinsed and dried. I think it absorbs well from here.

Hope this helps

Hurdity x

[moonbeam121167]

Hurdity,

 thanks for all your input, I put my patch on Sunday morning on my bum and then Thursday evening, I started using the gel properly Tuesday, 1 pump on my shoulder  going down my arm slightly in morning and then again at night,  not sure if I need to give it chance to work or not, also can I ask when I do something slightly energetic I get slight pains in my chest, not sure if it is palpitations, I have to stop and take a breath and its fine , this has been going on for months , the headaches radiate from my neck, it feels like my head is going to fall off, and my neck creeks alot, and the nausea comes and goes, I take an anti sickness pill most days and it helps a bit .