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[vintagefiend]

Hi,

Bit of a shot in the dark, but I wondered if there are any ladies here who've had ovaries removed and found some benefit in alternative supplements

I have tried HRT for years and feel dreadful on it! I've stopped very recently but feel pretty pants as I guess I'm running on empty!
I'm particularly interested in anything that will help me produce testosterone naturally- obvs that won't be from my ovaries but apparently it's produced elsewhere (adrenals?? brain, maybe??)
I have just started a magnesium 3 in 1 supplement (glycinate/taurate/threonate)- I actually have no idea what I'm doing but saw this mentioned somewhere and decided to try it. Feel quite shabby on it at the mo but it's only day 3.
I know exercise will help me but I can barely put one foot in front of the other at the moment- vicious cycle
Thanks for any help 

[CrispyChick]

Hey.

Maybe not the natural you were thinking of but dhea is meant to be good for raising testosterone. You can get it as tablets or cream.

Soz if you've have your ovaries removed - you've basically got no hormones. What happened on hrt!??

Have you tried just tiny doses? Even just vaginal estrogen? Might be enough for you x

[Nas]

Hi vintagefiend,
In a similar boat here; no ovaries, HRT off limits and on a hormone blocker. I feel awful too.

Frantically scouring the net, looking for something effective. Even Ovestin and vagifem isn’t helping the VA

Do share if you find something that works.

[vintagefiend]

oh wow I didn't expect replies so soon- if at all!- thank you

Crispy,
          hi- good point! I don't actually mean natural- I just mean *anything* other than HRT- I should probably rephrase it- I don't care if 100% synthetic if it helps!!
standard hrt makes me feel very depressed, anxious etc.
DHEA is a really good call- should I check my levels first and even if they're ok is it worth taking?
I'm particularly concerned about testosterone as I believe this is the hormone that continues to be produced by ovaries even after menopause- it does decrease but in a steady, slow way- so I figured it might be the one I miss most.
yes, I have tried small amounts of hrt- even ovestin on its own and even that was too much- I dunno- I'm a bit of a weirdo, super-sensitive.
I may try ovestin again, though- it's pretty easy (cheap!) to get hold of unlike other HRTs

Nas,
      I'm so sorry to hear you're in a similar boat- I recognise your name but didn't realise that you'd had your ovaries removed too.
I will certainly share if something works- I really feel for you. I'm sorry you can't take HRT and apologies for my ignorance but I know nothing about hormone blockers; will HRT always be off limits for you? Is it your mood as well as physical symptoms like the VA? For me, it's mood, fatigue and sleep ah! it's shite, isn't it?!
I do want to say to you that the best I have felt is when I've been off the HRT and somehow been able to go for runs. I'm not a runner or exerciser normally but it really did help- I don't know how I did it because I'm a sack of spuds at the moment and cannot face it- but I'd really like to get back to it. do you manage to exercise at all? sorry that sounds patronising- i'm sure you're well aware! it's just that i was amazed by how much better i felt and i think it actually increases testosterone overall- not just when you exercise- at least that's what i read v recently on one of my many dives into the ineternet- "scouring", as you say.

[CrispyChick]

Hi vintage.

Glad I could be of use.

So I was under the Marion Gluck clinic for a while and they prescribed me dhea. They did test first and I think my levels were middle of the road. I didn't use it for long as I'm peri. I'm in hell and trying to balance my E and P firstly.

I am interested in your story because I have been offered chem meno for my horrific sensitivity to my own estrogen. Then ovaries out.

Would you mind telling me why you had your ovaries out???

Interesting you are also so sensitive.

I dont know the different topical estrogens, but I'm sure a member told me the only one she could tolerate, because she is so sensitive to E, is Blissel. So might be worth comparing that to the one u tried.

In terms of DHEA. My clinic said pills are best. But if you are sensitive u might prefer to try a cream. Onas do one which 'guarantees' to raise your testosterone. Have a look.

Yes. I'd prob test first. Medichecks will do a finger test. Xx

[Nas]

Hey vintagefiend,
Good advice from Crispy re: the cream; definitely worth a shot I would say!
Have you tried things like Red Clover and Black Cohosh ( I know you need to be careful with the latter, regarding any contraindications with other meds and/or health conditions). Not sure about bio identical products that you can just buy online. Probably quite weak in content I would think?

What about booking in with a private meno specialist ( finances permitting) and seeing if you can get testosterone prescribed, without the HRT? You can even purchase it from the online Superdrug pharmacy (I think!).

Yes, my ovaries were whipped out last November (TAH) but HRT is off limits forever now. Yes, mood, sleep, VA, sweats, you name it.
I feel completely stuck and am just ploughing through the day in first gear, most of the time! The hormone blockers, essentially do what they say on the tin - block any hormones which enter the body via adrenals/fatty tissue etc. God awful things. If I could get the VA and constant weeing under control, I may move up to second gear!

Anyway, you have options, so maybe think what could work for you?. I do like walking and I used to do a bit of swimming. I need to get fitter by the day!

[vintagefiend]

Hi Crispy-

sorry you're feeling so awful.
that's really useful re the dhea as I have previously had normal, middling blood results for it by medichecks- I'm definitely going to try it.
to be honest I don't seem to fare any better on creams so I can try tablets- mind you, I like the bold assertion that onas makes, tempted to try that!
I guess I had my chem meno, then surgery for sort of the opposite reason to you in that I was intolerant of my own own progesterone/PMDD type of thing. Also of utrogestan/synthetic progs etc so wanted to eliminate the need for them.
But I do remember feeling bad all the time and the doc just focusing on the pmdd aspect- i remember there being fewer and fewer days of my cycle that I felt ok- i remember telling the doc but he fixated on the pmdd and din't really listen. makes me wonder now if it was the shifts of both hormones.
the chem meno didnt work out but a couple years later, I had the op. Frustratingly I could and should have kept my ovaries and just had womb out but doc said it would make no difference- it really did!! and I was officially menopausal-albeit early days -when I had ovaries removed but my world crashed 8 weeks later even though I'd continued with the oestrogel I was on prior to the operation- and I have not been able to tolerate it since. I'm at a loss as to what happened- but I have read similar accounts. it's all a bit confusing and i've been such a mess that i've just along with things.
however, what I would say is that everyone is definitely different and of course ovary removal does work for many.
I think the chemical meno is a really good idea- I feel like such a fool because I had it, felt suicidal, tried hrt, got nowhere and yet I still had my ovaries removed. I'm such an idiot- I was just in a such a low, vulnerable place that I just went with it. so it may be worth you trying that if only to eliminate surgery- just be aware it can be brutal- but is obviously temporary.
It's hard when you're in peri because you're all over the place! when I had my chem meno I went from prob v high oestradiol levels- as was taking fair amount oestrogel as well as mired in peri hell- to zero and it was horrible.
one other thing is that i'm not sure i really had success with hrt even prior to my op. every so often I would take it- the oestrogen- and feel wonderful only to lose that feeling swiftly. i was not a happy bunny even prior to the op- i'm not sure i've ever had meaningful success with hrt!! everything over the past decade's a blur. sorry that's a massive essay!
do you think you're vey far into peri?

[vintagefiend]

Hi Nas,
thanks again
embarrassingly I think I've tried most things- this has been over many years. I even found ashwagandha difficult. thinking about it though- I havent tried black cohosh since peri and obvs I'm, at a v different stage now.
I didnt appreciate that hormone blockers block hormones from within as well- I really hope you find some respite.
I'm on a thread on mumsnet (i'm everywhere!) and there's a woman who had it all out and is doing just fine several years later- i cling on to experiences like that. I know that some women weather ovary removal without hrt really well- just want to know their secret! and I'll let you know when I find it.

[bombsh3ll]

I take dhea for androgen replacement (I am also on combined pill Zoely) and it works well for me.

My free testosterone was almost undetectable before it, but is now in the upper half of the premenopausal range.

It has improved my libido, mood, cognitive function and lean body mass.

This is not medical advice, obviously do your own research, I am simply stating what works for me.

I take 25mg sublingual dhea daily. Others may need more or less than this, so it would be wise to check androgen levels once settled on your effective dose, to ensure you remain in the physiological range.

As an aside, have you considered tibolone? This is another option with both estrogenic and androgenic action which also protects the uterus (if you have one). All in one pill. Some women who don't get on with standard HRT really thrive on it.

[CrispyChick]

Thank you vintage.

Hmmm I'm scared stiff of the chem meno. The mood is the bit that's stressing me. Big I'm just not getting anywhere trying to tame my horrific symptoms. It's been going on 7 years. I'm 48 now. But the last 4 months have been absolute hell.

Thank you for sharing your story.

So the problem with ovary removal is it removes even tiny doses of hormones, which you possibly still make far into meno???

Have u tried the otc (well, online) estrogen creams? Onas do one. Biovea. Wellsprings. Might be worth a try. You could do very low
dose.

Defo give the dhea a try. When I tried it. I'm pretty sure it made me nice happy, calm and relaxed. But unfortunately my E was killing me. And I couldnt really work out what was what.

It's all so heartbreaking that some of us end up in these awful positions. Xx

[vintagefiend]

thanks, bombsh3ll
          great that it's worked for you- I love to hear a success story! I'm definitely going to try it
I did recently try tibolone and unfortunately it did not work out!

CrispyChick-
      I totally understand your apprehension re chem meno but feel duty bound to tell you that my doctor at the time claims he had many success stories. He seemed dumb-founded that I'd had such a bad time so perhaps I was in a tiny minority. It's so hard to know as I've learned that sometimes really obvious stuff takes ages to filter through to medical community, enough for them to warn us about consequences or side effects. so i dont bloody trust them! I'm so sorry you've had such a crappy time for so long- it's a similar timescale to what I experienced- i eventually left work due to it at 40 and became menopausal at 48 or 49 and I do remember being in the peri trenches!! I'm now 52 (or is that 82!!)

regarding ovary removal and tiny doses of hormones- this is just from dr google and a variety of other internet sources- my (layperson's) understanding is that the ovaries completely switch off making prog and oestradiol at menopause, either natural or surgical (or chemical)- that said I wouldnt be surprised if the cliff is steeper for surgical/chem meno! possibly these hormones (at least oestradiol) are made elsewhere but in negligible amounts.

However, I think it's widely acknowledged that the ovaries do continue to pump out testosterone, long into menopause. the amounts decrease gradually with age (in fact they begin decreasing I think in our 30s I think) but don't fall off a cliff as with oestrogen and progesterone.

Testosterone is also made in the adrenal glands- about half our supply. This shouldnt be affected by ovary removal (i hope!!)
So removal of the ovaries abruptly decreases T by 50%
I do wonder if this is why I crashed 8 weeks later.
So what I'm thinking now is can I enhance the production of T that I do have?
I do even wonder if maybe, just maybe the body would ultimately compensate and produce more in the adrenals after ovary removal- I guess that's wishful thinking!

I have indeed tried the otc biovea- some in my drawer right now and quelle surprise they didnt work i feel like a scratched record- what docs would call a "heart-sink patient"!
well for sure I'm going to give dhea a go- thanks again for that.
I'm sorry you're not able to take it at present- maybe you're at the point in peri where oestradiol is going crazy? in relation to progesterone maybe. I remember the feeling of fire-fighting
it is soul-destroying to be like this- i totally agree with you. you may find it much better at actual menopause- which I know doesn't help now, when a week feels like a year, but it could be on the horizon.
wishing you well x

[CrispyChick]

Thanks vintage.

So - you had the chem meno in peri? But it was post me o u had your ovaries out??? Did things not improve for you post meno then??? I was kind of hoping they might find me.  just don't know how long I've got to wait for it.

I'm about to finish work due to this. I cannot continue any longer. ☹️

Can I ask what your symptoms are now then? In what way did the biovea not work??? Made you worse or you felt nothing?

Have you considered (funds permitting) a bhrt clinic? Custom made hormones. They could do tiny doses and add in dhea and/or test. But it is expensive.

When you had chem meno - did you use add back hrt???

My gynae was quite realistic. She said she thinks I'll feel bad on it. So it's not very appealing. But it is temporary

Xx

[vintagefiend]

Hi Crispy-

please don't worry- I was way better in natural meno than I am now - but it wasn't straightforward and my recollection of things is admittedly hazy so I apologise for confusion- it was a confusing time!

I had the chemical meno in peri at the point where my hormones were see-sawing all over the place. I was taking hrt too- it was a horrible, jittery time. of course the chem meno stopped all my hormones and then I was given 2 pumps oestrogel add back to combat the depressive symptoms of this. I felt very low and the oestrogel didn't touch it. It was horrible but I knew it wouldn't last and gradually the zoladex wore off- thank god!!

Then it was back to the drawing board. I went on venlafaxine 225mg- fairly high I think and kind of loped along still in peri- never on top of my symptoms- massive periods, low ferritin, jittery- couldn't work or drive etc etc

Then I became naturally menopausal. I was barely using any oestrogel at that point so I must have found it difficult for some reason- I can't quite remember. But, I vividly remember feeling so low that in desperation I put on 2 pumps oestrogel and it was awesome- I felt fantastic. so that was just into menopause maybe a few months post last period.

from then I decided to get off the antidepressant which has proven no mean feat!! venlafaxine is a pig to get off and I've been coming off it, then swapped to prozac over the last 4 years or so!! still on smallish dose prozac but aiming to get off still.

so basically, I was taking oestrogel and although it wasnt as amazing as before, I could certainly tolerate it and of course everything has been massively muddied by coming off antidepressants- such a slow, painful process!

of course I had a womb at this point and needed to take progesterone. I absolutely hated that and used to take it once every three months 100mg a day just for a week- almost unbearable but it did the trick keeping womb lining thin.

I was very fed up of having the prog every 3 months it felt like it ruled my life. Now I would give anything to be in that situation!!
So I had my op thinking this will change my life for the better and it prob would have done if i'd just had womb out but obvs had ovaries out too!- a few weeks after the op my mood crashed massively, I couldnt tolerate my HRT and have hidden away desperately trying different hrt methods since!! I don't have any good days now- i long to feel normal- I wish I'd just had womb out or not bothered at all and am furious with the doctor.

sorry that's all a bit doom and gloom but you're honestly in a good position in that you have your ovaries intact, so you can maybe try the chem meno- hopefully with some support and see where you go from there. I don't mean to deter you from surgery- I'm just being fully upfront about my experience.

I'm going to order some dhea today- certainly I'll think about bhrt - I guess it's money and energy too!

just t be clear- I think there is a good chance that you'll feel way more settled in natural menopause especially if it's oestrogen that's your problem. I just wanted the icing on the cake by not having to take prog! I would 100% go back to how I felt in natural meno than how I feel now even though it wasn't plain sailing but I was very early into it and, as I say, coming off anti-deps so it's all a bit messy.

I hope that gives some clarity- I'm not the best historian! I know that peri feels endless but it does end- whereas I guess once ovaries are out, they're out and that's it!! I'm sorry you're having to give up work- it becomes impossible, doesn't it? we're super-skint as a result but I couldn't have continued (realise I'm lucky that I was able to but gosh I'm embarrassed by how unproductive I am, how my kids must see me)

sounds like your gynae's a lot better than mine was- acknowledging that you may feel bad on the zoladex- seems like mine was strangely underinformed.
wishing you all the best- do you have people in your life you can lean on a wee bit?

[CrispyChick]

Thank you soooo much vintage.

Quite a journey. And one I can truly relate to - except for the massive interventions!

It's certainly interesting and very sad reading. I'm so sorry sorry you now find yourself in a worse position. And certainly, thank you for sharing - as my gynae has said I can have my ovaries out if I like chem meno.  Food for thought there.

Yes. I hear you on peri ending one day. It's just nothing seems to have loved on for me. I've currently got the same symptoms I had when all this started 7 years ago. Mind boggling.

I've lurched from one thing to another over the last 7 years. Tried every pill under the sun then tried bhrt prog only. But just never made it. Now my system seems over sensitised and I can't seem to tolerate anything!

I'd love nothing more than to hobble through to meno. But just not sure I can make it. The last 5 months have been torture. Maybe once I stop work. And id also like to get my antidepressant up.

So the antidepressants don't help your low moods caused by hormones loss???

I'm the same with my kids. Feel like I'm a terrible mother, can't do stuff with them that I'd like to. They've grown up with me like this. Very sad.

I'm so sorry you are still in this hell. There will be something for you, I'm sure. So, for what it's worth the lead doc at mation Gluck told me dhea is better taken in tablet form. But I think start low. I defo think if helped my mood. So definitely worth a shot for you.

Thanks so much for sharing xxxx

[vintagefiend]

aw thanks, Crispy- you obviously totally understand and 7 years is a very long time to feel dreadful especially when you don't know where the end-point is. As you say, maybe if you give up work, you might be able to limp to the end!! I feel for all the women working under these circumstances- for a start there's no way I could have considered coming off antidepressants- no way at all.
regarding antideps- the venlafaxine did get me through a rough time but as the years rolled on I realised it wasn't really doing much and was causing side effects- fatigue/brain fog/weight gain- I realise these can be side effects of just about anything but I'm sure it was the antidep. I suppose I've felt a but stubborn in that it's my hormones that are the problem and I'd rather address that directly than take antideps. However, that hasn't really worked out for me, has it!
given that I'm not working I felt I had the space to come off antideps- I guess I could go back on "properly" and may well end up doing that but sunk time and all that.
It's was different in peri for me though- I definitely needed the antideps and had no desire to come off them at the time- so I'm not knocking them
I think they kind of pooped out on me eventually- prozac poop-out is a thing apparently- you get used to it, it stops working- you shop around for different ones etc. but they do work- i just feel for me that they have a lifespan and then become a problem but in peri they were a life-line
wishing you well and thanks again for the info on dhea- I will try it xxxx