Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[ElkWarning]

Joziel, I fully appreciate that you are not writing purely for my benefit, as this is a public forum.

After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.

Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT? That might encourage more women to instigate a conversation with their GP, re: the benefits of HRT, when requesting a prescription?

I don't think that it is just outdated reports which put women off taking HRT either. We know it can be a challenge to strike the right HRT balance; bleeding and a thickened womb lining for example, can also be alarming and put women off.

it's important to state over and over the benefits of HRT on health and the risks of *not* taking it.
Please state those risks. Yes there are great benefits to taking HRT, but we must also remember, that taking a holistic approach to menopause, is not a bad thing either. For many it is just another useful tool in the box, (and often a very important one).


 I would be devastated if that were the case myself (and might even be one of the few women who insist on taking it anyway, since it's about an informed choice).

It is indeed an informed choice, but depending on the reason you couldn't take HRT, you would have to find someone to prescribe it to you. You could not "insist" that you took it.

Well said.

GP took me off HRT, consultant pharmacologist agreed with this action.

@ CharleyFarley, I had some horrendous bleeds when peri, that made me feel really panicky. If at all possible try and keep a diary of your symptoms. It used to help me feel more confident when I went to the doctor's if I could refer to evidence during my conversations with them - made my health anxiety a bit better because I want so adrift in what I wanted to say and which questions I needed to ask.

[Penguin]

Joziel, I fully appreciate that you are not writing purely for my benefit, as this is a public forum.

After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.

Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT? That might encourage more women to instigate a conversation with their GP, re: the benefits of HRT, when requesting a prescription?

I don't think that it is just outdated reports which put women off taking HRT either. We know it can be a challenge to strike the right HRT balance; bleeding and a thickened womb lining for example, can also be alarming and put women off.

it's important to state over and over the benefits of HRT on health and the risks of *not* taking it.
Please state those risks. Yes there are great benefits to taking HRT, but we must also remember, that taking a holistic approach to menopause, is not a bad thing either. For many it is just another useful tool in the box, (and often a very important one).


 I would be devastated if that were the case myself (and might even be one of the few women who insist on taking it anyway, since it's about an informed choice).

It is indeed an informed choice, but depending on the reason you couldn't take HRT, you would have to find someone to prescribe it to you. You could not "insist" that you took it.

Totally agree with everything you've said Nas. Plus, I recalled my doctor telling me that a small amount of estrogen is still produced elsewhere, so reading this made me look into it. Found this within a minute online!

'In nonreproductive women, such as young females before puberty or women after menopause, extragonadal sites are the main sources of estrogens, including kidney, adipose tissue, skin, and brain.'

Joziel, scaring people into taking hrt is as bad (particularly for those who have serious medical conditions to contend with anyway) as scaring them into not taking it. There are pros and cons to everything, and also other ways you can protect your heart, bones etc than purely hrt as the only solution. The risks are relative to each woman's personal circumstances.

[Charleyfarley]

Thank you so much ladies, I’m going to try and stay away from HRT until my bodies settled.

The bleed, the breast issues, they all culminated into a health anxiety meltdown…so much so that I was hoping I had actually had a miscarriage rather than something else 🤯

My mum was horrified when I started taking HRT, her mum and sister have history of breast cancer & she didn’t agree when the GP told me that I was a step removed from that so not to worry.

When this happened with the bleed etc she said that my body is so sensitive to estrogen that I was one of the few cases that should have been almost grateful for the menopause and peri. I have suffered with PMDD since teens and she said although I was in the minority, I was someone that would benefit from the death of the hormones 🤷‍♀️🫣 she didn’t understand why I would want to start pumping them back into my body when they had caused so much hell…

I’m kind of on that bus now and whilst I think HRT is a god send it was either too soon on my journey to take, ie maybe caused far too much estrogen dominance or it just isn’t for my body.

I’m going to start researching the withdrawal effects though because I’m feeling a little bit spaced out and anxious since removing it xxx

[joziel]

Charleyfarley, there's nothing wrong with taking a break, taking progesterone only for a while first (utrogestan) or waiting if you think it's too early for you - but don't decide in a snap decision never to take it again, is the gist of what I'm saying.

Nas, I'm sorry but I don't need to repeatedly state every thing, every single time I write something to someone - just because you think I should. A quick google of anything I'm saying would bring up research studies and it kinda clogs up a post to state details every single time.

I'm fed up of hearing, on social media and now it seems on here as well - from women who can't take HRT, who deal with this by dissing HRT, dismissing the health benefits and insisting that you can be just as healthy without it. The science on all this is very clear now. It's really poor logic, to get out of cognitive dissonance by telling yourself "I can't take HRT, so I must find reasons to make that okay in my mind by not wanting to take it anyway". 

I'm really sorry for the women who can't take it - and I mean that - I would be devastated. But to these women who can't take it, I'd say: Please don't get out of that difficult situation by promoting HRT as dangerous, ineffective or not necessary. Just because you can't take it, doesn't mean you should become anti-HRT (in even a slight way) as a response. Deal with the cognitive dissonance instead of causing harm to your sisters worldwide by causing them to make choices which are not in their best interests, just to help you feel less conflicted. Of course there are many other things you can turn to, to try to help menopause symptoms - but to promote them to people who *can* take HRT and to diss HRT just because you can't take it, is a fallacy which does great harm to others.

After menopause, when oestrogen is no longer made in the ovaries, I found out that it can instead, be made in the fatty tissues of the body (when enzymes change other hormones into oestrogen). Obviously the amount of oestrogen produced is far less than pre meno, but it seems that women are left with a tiny bit of oestrogen at least, rather than zero.


Actually, that type of estrogen is called estrone. It's weak, it's inflammatory and it doesn't have the same health benefits as the estradiol which your ovaries make and which is in HRT.


Maybe state which "diseases" women may be prone to developing, without HRT?

I've stated them many times, I'm sorry I forgot to repeat them in this one thread. Without taking HRT you're at increased risk of heart disease, dementia, osteoporosis and sarcopenia.

[SarahT]

Josie you do post some in-depth and helpful information on this forum and encourage others to also do their research with regards to what medications may be suitable for their needs.
But I do take issue with you appearing to suggest some women who have had to cease hrt to it nagging a conflict with serious health issues are in effect 'dissing'  hrt. I really can't see it like that. Those that genuinely can no longer take it simply  have no option but to look for other ways to alleviate hormonal symptoms, or alternatives ways to maintain the other benefits hrt provides. Put simply, I don't see these women as totally dissing hrt - it's impossible for them to take it into their bodies. It's hardly a fault of theirs is it?
 In some ways you reply may actually  scare those who should not take hrt into taking it even if it IS detrimental to their overall health. Isn't that as bad as your inferring some women in here are supposedly dissing hrt?

We all need to take an informed choice for our bodies and minds.  Hrt, and the discussions of hrt cannot just be a generalisation - individuals have very individual health issues. It's a fact, some will not take hrt ( very much their valued choice) and those who cannot take hrt.

[joziel]

Ummm....

But I do take issue with you appearing to suggest some women who have had to cease hrt to it nagging a conflict with serious health issues are in effect 'dissing'  hrt.

Please show me where I've said that? I'm sorry, I think you've misinterpreted what's going on here. As it seems a few others have as well.

I am talking about this statement from Nas:

joziel I do find it upsetting, when you say that the impact of zero oestrogen  during menopause, can increase the risk of many other diseases.

This is asking me not to share the truth about HRT (that not taking it increases the risk of many diseases) just because Nas finds it 'upsetting' to hear this.

That, or she just felt like telling me it was upsetting - for what reason, I'm not sure.

Truth is sometimes upsetting. Science is sometimes upsetting. The outcomes of studies are not what 'we' always want them to be. Reality sucks sometimes. None of this changes reality. Facts are facts. Do we not share the facts, because some people find them 'upsetting'? (When those people finding them 'upsetting' were not the OP with the situation in the first place, but just read someone else's thread?)

This was originally a post where someone who *could* take HRT was considering stopping it. I pointed out the benefits of it and the risks of not taking it. Somehow, that information was 'upsetting' and implicitly therefore should not be shared?

I will continue to point out the benefits of HRT to those women who are able to take it. I will continue to point out the risks of *not* taking it, to those women who are able to take it.

If facts are 'upsetting' for some people, I'm really and truly sorry about that - it's not my intention to 'upset' anyone, that's not why I am sharing information. I'm sharing it to help the women who are able to take it but are having difficulties and considering stopping. Anyone ''upset' by facts should maybe just scroll on by....

[SarahT]

Hi Joziel,

Hands up the word nagging in my post was an odd typo ( I have some kind of auto correct set up and she to my techy ineptitude haven't turned it off).

Again, tech stupidity means I cannot paste in the part of your post which I am most concerned about, so I quote

 " women who can't take HRT, who deal with this by dissing HRT and dismissing the health benefits and insisting that you can be just as healthy without it"

Did I interpret this wrong then? If so I apologise. But I read that whilst thinking of those who simply cannot take HRT due to it being potentially dangerous to existing health conditions, and that they  are not dismissing HRT for every suitable individual.

No, I am fortunate that I can take hrt and benefit greatly now I have the correct regime for my bodies current needs. Yes I have read someone else's thread who was on hrt and now has had to stop for serious heath reasons and I will continue to support that person and others if I can.

I think using the word ' upsetting ' when speaking of those who cannot take hrt could be trivializing the impact of not being able to take hrt even if they did once or would like to be able to use it.

I agree, you, and anyone else should write posts, and respond to posts in the best way they see best, and  I repeat,  you do share some serious information about the many benefits of hrt.... It's just some cannot take it even hrt they want to. And they may find your post upsetting and also, like any of us have  the right to respond to your post, or any others posts  accordingly.

I genuinely believe that you don't wish to upset those women who want hrt but cannot have it. You are wanting to give those who are considering stopping hrt food for thought.  Yes science can be upsetting but so can life and working with menopause symptoms be upsetting too.

[Mary G]

For women who are contraindicated for HRT there is a new, non hormonal drug but I'm sorry, I can't remember the name but I did post an article about it from the Guardian.

My personal view is if you can take HRT then do it.  There are so many obvious benefits that far outweigh the risks.  Why suffer years of miserable and debilitating symptoms when you don't need to?  It seems pretty pointless to me.

I'm afraid a lot of women are terrified of the menopause and become menopause deniers - when people find themselves in a situation they can't change, they often pretend to either be happy with it or pretend it doesn't exist. 

My younger sister will not even discuss the menopause and now I can see she is slowly turning into my mother and has scooped up all the menopause symptoms she had - she was also a menopause denier.  Then there is my friend in Australia who is plagued with severe brain fog, life ruining insomnia (she now has to sleep in a separate bedroom to her partner). She asked me to buy her some Oestrogel (she's had a hysterectomy) but then refuses to use it without giving a reason.  I despair.

So if you can take HRT, it's a no brainer but if you are unable to, there is help elsewhere with other drugs.

[Nas]

All I am saying on the matter joziel, is that as this is a public forum, you might want to think about your choice of words.

As one who is newly diagnosed with a disease which means my use of HRT had to come to an abrupt end, then yes, I do find you saying that zero oestrogen, can lend itself to other diseases, daunting.

I gained many benefits from HRT and even though I could never get the dose quite right, I continued for all the reasons you have stated. So with all due respect, I was not “ dissing” HRT at all. If I could use it, I would.

[dangermouse]

I think we have to accept that one woman’s elixir is another woman’s poison.

Like the combined pill, HRT protects from some diseases and can raise the risk of others. If you feel great on it then that could be a clue that it’s what your body needs, conversely if you feel bad on it then it could be causing you hidden issues.

I think we need to start being more intuitive with food and medicines and if it doesn’t feel right, then it probably isn’t.

As some of you have alluded to, we subconsciously want others to be making the same choices as ourselves to provide us with comfort that we are making the right choice. Also, when you have been in the same position as another poster but found a way through, you want to share that to help them.

As well meaning as the advice always is, sadly, there have been some members of this forum who have struggled with HRT and been encouraged quite vigorously to increase their doses or go against their doctor’s advice, and ended up with oestrogen driven illnesses, which may or may not have happened without the HRT, but will no doubt leave them wondering. On a longer term basis, some could be encouraged to stop their HRT and end up with an illness the HRT could have protected them from. It’s all unknown unknowns in the end.

Ultimately, it’s our own choice to take it or not, but rather than debating the pros and cons of HRT, which can be completely different from one person to the next, perhaps it’s safer to share our own experiences and give practical advice and statistics but only ever from our own perspective.

[ElkWarning]

Thank you so much ladies, I’m going to try and stay away from HRT until my bodies settled.

The bleed, the breast issues, they all culminated into a health anxiety meltdown…so much so that I was hoping I had actually had a miscarriage rather than something else 🤯

My mum was horrified when I started taking HRT, her mum and sister have history of breast cancer & she didn’t agree when the GP told me that I was a step removed from that so not to worry.

When this happened with the bleed etc she said that my body is so sensitive to estrogen that I was one of the few cases that should have been almost grateful for the menopause and peri. I have suffered with PMDD since teens and she said although I was in the minority, I was someone that would benefit from the death of the hormones 🤷‍♀️🫣 she didn’t understand why I would want to start pumping them back into my body when they had caused so much hell…

I’m kind of on that bus now and whilst I think HRT is a god send it was either too soon on my journey to take, ie maybe caused far too much estrogen dominance or it just isn’t for my body.

I’m going to start researching the withdrawal effects though because I’m feeling a little bit spaced out and anxious since removing it xxx

Hi

I had to go cold turkey. It was a bit of a rough ride, but I just tried to be kind to myself, eat well, lots of walks, stay hydrated, no vino, couple of valium, herbal sleepy tea.

I was interested in what you said about PMDD. I also had that and hormonal effect always seemed to magnify everything.

I think, you know, I had to listen to my own body and give myself that space to be a bit messed up. In terms of the health anxiety, is it worth speaking to the practice manager and asking if you could see someone at the surgery with some experience in this area?

Hope you've recovered from your nasty shock.

[ElkWarning]

All I am saying on the matter joziel, is that as this is a public forum, you might want to think about your choice of words.

As one who is newly diagnosed with a disease which means my use of HRT had to come to an abrupt end, then yes, I do find you saying that zero oestrogen, can lend itself to other diseases, daunting.

I gained many benefits from HRT and even though I could never get the dose quite right, I continued for all the reasons you have stated. So with all due respect, I was not “ dissing” HRT at all. If I could use it, I would.

Hey Nas, lovely to see you being your usual fabulous self. I'm reading your other thread and sending positive vibes your way.

[Charleyfarley]

Oh wow Elkwarning, it’s rare I hear that someone else knows of or suffers wirh PMDD…get over here right this second and give me a high five 👏😂🤗

Yep. 2 weeks of every month since 15yrs old has been pretty much a hormone hangover…so severe that sometimes when the hormones took a rest I was left feeling like I’d been drunk and was so embarrassed by some of the things I’d said/done…was a fog of emotional distress and severe anxiety from such erratic decision making…

I’ve learned to take a lot my mum says with a bucket of salt over the years, she loves me very much but her size doesn’t always fit all and I tried to do my own thing when it came to HRT…I really believed it was right for me…through the hours of research, the conversations with friends, the talks with docs…I dived in….but that one statement from my mum last week really was the most impactful thing I’ve heard from anyone “you’ve been battling with these god awful hormones your whole life, it might be a bit uncomfortable whilst in the transition but why on gods green earth do you want to go right back to the beginning and pump yourself full of what bit you”……and with that….i thought it might just be worth stripping it all back and seeing where my own body and mind take me

I’ll be back in a month crying out for advice 😂🤦‍♀️ but for now I do believe the estrogen pushed me over the edge…diet, exercise and sheer mental strength is going to have to do for now….

Did you find that dizziness and nausea was an issue in cold turkey? I pulled up at costa this morning felt like I’d been on the waltzers 🤣🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ xxxx

[joziel]

I'm not meaning to upset anyone by sharing facts, but equally I'm not going to not share them or speak freely, for fear of 'upsetting' people. Or where would we be...

HRT is not for everyone and sadly some can't take it.

I had to take desogestrel for 10 years to suppress my own hormones and my endometriosis. I wish I didn't have to do that. It increased my own risk of several diseases, I had zero libido on it and I'm sure it contributed to my developing hypothyroidism. But I had to take it, to not have endometriosis. I didn't try to resolve that dissonance by kidding myself that all those negatives didn't exist, or by telling people I found what they said 'upsetting' if I came across conversations online where people were scaring others off taking birth control. I just knew that personally I didn't have a choice - I had to take it regardless and deal with the side effects and those increased risks.

Sometimes the cost-benefit analysis for one person comes out differently than for another.

[Nas]

Joziel, when you you are abrupty told that you can no longer have any hormones in your body ever again, due to an illness or condition which has developed and then you read somewhere, that having zero oestrogen in you body, makes you prone to other diseases (as that is what you have said) then let me know.

In no way, shape or form, am I kidding myself that the negatives of not taking HRT do not exist for some women. On the contrary, I myself am already starting to see the impact of no oestrogen on my own body. But do I want to be reminded that this may increase my risk of developing further problems? Not really no.

As you rightly point out, HRT is not for everyone and some can't take it. So why not leave it there, instead of mentioning the negatives of not taking it.