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[dangermouse]

I personally believe that the protection that exogenous oestrogen might give in post menopause is exaggerated. Most of the cardiovascular research, for example, was carried out on young women and it is still to be seen if it actually helps post menopausal women.

Bones wise, progesterone is just as important as oestrogen, and if you go too far with oestrogen, it can lower your already far too dwindled natural progesterone levels.

It can all be questioned so if you can’t take it, it’s a good sign it’s not what your individual body needs.

[Lesley M]

Hi Mary,

I’ve read many of your posts and wanted to message you but can’t as I haven’t done 10 posts.

I used to be on oestrogel and utrogestan but finally gave up at the start of last year.

Since then I’ve developed tinnitus, which I’ve read is statistically more common in women with low oestrogen levels. And I have a raised liver enzyme that keeps going up and feel tired and a bit unwell much of the time.

I suggested to my doctor that the same enzyme had been raised when I first went to see prof Studd (many years ago) had dropped back after starting the hrt he prescribed - oestrogel and utrogestan. He asked if I’d lost weight at the time, so wasn’t very open to it being hormone related. I’m not slim, am a bit overweight but not hugely so.

I managed hrt for years by tolerating as much utrogestan as I could (not that much) and reducing my oestrogel to a minimum… not everyday and not always even 1 pump. When I had my uterine lining checked it was ok.

I’m now 63, well post meno but am thinking about trying again.

I spoke to a different gp and had a discussion that felt like talking to a pharma rep. In the end I agreed to try patches but they just fall off. Though they are remarkably adhesive when it comes to my clothes.

I saw your post about your regime. I don’t think the progesterone gel you use is available in the U.K. Do you know of anything similar?

I got on pretty well with oestrogel it was the utrogestan that was completely debilitating. I tried vaginlly, I even tried squeezing some out to reduce the dose a bit but nothing seemed to help.

I appreciate if I explore any regime that is not the usual I need to make sure I get my uterine lining checked.

If I can find something that works I will then ask if my gp will  prescribe but unfortunately I think I need to try to find something for myself first.

This is a very long way of asking what progesterones you know of in the U.K. that I might be able to source.

Thanks for all your posts. I regained a little hope in reading them!

[Lesley M]

I just realised I may have posted to a thread I shouldn’t have. Apologies! I’m new to posting here!!

[joziel]

" So why not leave it there, instead of mentioning the negatives of not taking it."

1) Because this is a thread from someone who was considering completely stopping HRT, due to side effects - when they can take it and have no known risk factors meaning they shouldn't take it.

2) Because the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.

If you find facts about HRT and estrogen upsetting, sorry about that. I find many things in life upsetting to hear about. Life is genuinely upsetting. It's not the responsibility of the people who are telling us the upsetting things not to 'upset' us.

[ElkWarning]

Oh wow Elkwarning, it’s rare I hear that someone else knows of or suffers wirh PMDD…get over here right this second and give me a high five 👏😂🤗

Yep. 2 weeks of every month since 15yrs old has been pretty much a hormone hangover…so severe that sometimes when the hormones took a rest I was left feeling like I’d been drunk and was so embarrassed by some of the things I’d said/done…was a fog of emotional distress and severe anxiety from such erratic decision making…

I’ve learned to take a lot my mum says with a bucket of salt over the years, she loves me very much but her size doesn’t always fit all and I tried to do my own thing when it came to HRT…I really believed it was right for me…through the hours of research, the conversations with friends, the talks with docs…I dived in….but that one statement from my mum last week really was the most impactful thing I’ve heard from anyone “you’ve been battling with these god awful hormones your whole life, it might be a bit uncomfortable whilst in the transition but why on gods green earth do you want to go right back to the beginning and pump yourself full of what bit you”……and with that….i thought it might just be worth stripping it all back and seeing where my own body and mind take me

I’ll be back in a month crying out for advice 😂🤦‍♀️ but for now I do believe the estrogen pushed me over the edge…diet, exercise and sheer mental strength is going to have to do for now….

Did you find that dizziness and nausea was an issue in cold turkey? I pulled up at costa this morning felt like I’d been on the waltzers 🤣🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️ xxxx

I think I have a slightly better handle on PMDD now as my youngest also has the diagnosis. Interestingly, or perhaps not, we're both autistic (she's still awaiting that to be formally confirmed) and I think this also has something to do with it, but I'm not sure what.

She moved back in with us during COVID, and at that time I went from peri to menopausal, so it's been a revelation to be in observation mode without being on the PMDD rollercoaster myself. My husband has to frequently remind me (when I'm merrily talking as if she's experiencing a symptom I've never had) that he recognises the pattern from many years of living with me. It's kind of scary to remember how gripping PMDD was, how unhinged it made me feel and what sort of person I could be when I was right in the thick of it.

On the plus side, this does translate into actual support for my daughter, who's doing pretty well because she's able to self-advocate for what she needs.

Did I feel sick and dizzy? I was a bit all over the place. But HRT didn't do me any favours. I couldn't say with any certainty what was the result of stuff going on and what was the hormones, and how far these were related. I think I'd give an unreliable account. However, I do know that my journey to recovery involved exercise (as you mention), herbs from a herbalist, therapy and a complete change of career. It's like I went into peri as one person and came out of the menopause as a completely different one.

For me, and I stress this really is just my perception and not something I'd try to suggest is widely applicable, I don't think HRT was appropriate because I was so sensitive to hormonal upheaval (PMDD, autism, who knows). Layering hormones so when they were up they were seriously up, I believe, caused me enormous difficulties.

Sorry responding on a phone and can't remember your other points

[ElkWarning]

" So why not leave it there, instead of mentioning the negatives of not taking it."

1) Because this is a thread from someone who was considering completely stopping HRT, due to side effects - when they can take it and have no known risk factors meaning they shouldn't take it.

2) Because the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.

If you find facts about HRT and estrogen upsetting, sorry about that. I find many things in life upsetting to hear about. Life is genuinely upsetting. It's not the responsibility of the people who are telling us the upsetting things not to 'upset' us.

Hey, pretty sure this is unintentionally inappropriate at this time, but if you could rein it in a bit, that would be grand.

[Nas]

Thanks Elk. Kinda hoped you’d be around.

[Penguin]

Joziel please just stop, you are being incredibly insensitive about this. You've made your point about how great hrt is, many times over and Nas accepts that amd isn’t challenging your world view, but please, the above just wasn't necessary.

[suzysunday]

Likewise from me. I agree with Penguin and ElkWarning's comments.

[Ayesha]

I will also step in here and say that I had to say something when joziel made insensitive, rude and aggressive comments on another thread upsetting the OP. 

joziel, think about how your comments will affect other forum members before you click on the send button, because you are obviously getting it wrong with your attitude towards your fellow women.

[SarahT]

I totally agree. There is a time when comments become downright rude and distressing. This is one of those times. Just watch the tone sometimes.

[Wrensong]

Joziel, this forum thrives not only on the exchange of knowledge & experience but on inclusion, kindness & sensitivity to others' circumstances, preferences, fears & worries.  Nas is facing a very difficult situation with admirable grace & courage & I feel the tone of some of your comments to her on this thread is not in the spirit of what most of us try to do here.

the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.  If you find facts about HRT and estrogen upsetting, sorry about that. I find many things in life upsetting to hear about. Life is genuinely upsetting. It's not the responsibility of the people who are telling us the upsetting things not to 'upset' us.

If I were new to the forum or considering joining I would also find this thread offputting, so potentially counterproductive to your stated aim of helping women with HRT.

Charleyfarley, I'm sorry this has happened on your thread, but I'm pleased to see you feel you have had some helpful advice & support.

Later revision: a number of us have stated clearly how upset we've been by some of the posts here & having said in more detail what I felt needed to be heard earlier, I've now edited this post to its essence to reduce the potential in any future revival of the thread, for recurrent discomfort in a member I'm choosing to believe may not have been at her best at the time of posting & may therefore regret her manner.

[suzysunday]

Also, Nas has been helpful, kind and supportive to  other women on this forum, including me, despite her own serious health problems.

[Nas]

2) Because the whole world isn't you, Nas. And I was giving advice to someone who wasn't you.


You are absolutely right Joziel, the whole world isn't me ( I mean could you imagine!  )

All I am saying, is that this is a public forum, which any member can access. You are right, if a person doesn't like what they read, then scroll on.

However, unless you are clinically qualified to say this I wouldn't avoid estrogen and HRT forevermore because the impact of zero estrogen and menopause on health is to increase the risk of many diseases.... then I would have chosen my words more carefully.

You have women who have tried different HRT regimes and it didn't suit.
You have women who cannot take HRT for reasons known to them.
You have women who may be fearful of taking HRT due to unwanted side effects.
You have women who are on HRT, but it may not be working in the way they had hoped (but are now fearful of coming off it).

For all of those categories of women, to mention the possibilty of developing further diseases, is not necessary. That is not the same as denying the benefits of HRT. Of course many women benefit from the use of HRT and it can work wonders for those many women. I do not find the facts about HRT upsetting at all: on the contrary, as I have said, I gained many benefits from it previously.

But just spare a thought for the above groups of women.

[joziel]

Hello everyone - Nas, I do know that you're going through a difficult time at the moment. And I do get that people are feeling protective towards you due to that. (Which is kind and shows what a nice place this forum is.)

However, I won't be told by someone else (regardless of who it is and what kind of a hard time they are having) that I can't tell people facts - because those facts offend others. That's it, really.

And as for the others here... I just find this situation genuinely upsetting. I get that you all care about Nas (who I haven't really had much to do with before this, it's not that I don't care - I just don't know her). I think that's great. But when she is essentially bullying other members and telling them what they can/can't say for fear of it upsetting her - and then you all piling on behind that and supporting her... then we have a situation which is more about ganging up and group dynamics and less about either factual truth or supporting people to pass on information they know is true.

Before you comment here, please be aware: This thread was started by a third party who was experiencing side effects and considering giving up HRT entirely. I gave that person advice about the increased risk of diseases resulting from not taking estrogen (amongst other advice, that wasn't all I said). Nas then appeared on this thread and told me I was 'upsetting' her by saying this and shouldn't be saying it.

I think what I have described in the previous paragraph is entirely unacceptable behaviour. Whoever it's from. Regardless of personal circumstances, I'm not going to tolerate it - because that would be condoning bullying. What gives anyone else the right to appear out of no where and tell them they can't say what they're saying, because they find it 'upsetting'? Whatever next, maybe we should cancel all news programs forevermore. No more of that 'upsetting' nasty news. Who wants facts? We might upset someone with them.