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[Ann B]

I previously posed the question of what P.H. we should aim for in order to prevent UTI.  We didn't seem to get to a definitive answer. 

Despite looking at articles on the Internet and a response from a urologist that urine should be maintained as acid in order to inhibit bacterial growth in the bladder and urinary system, I remain undecided.

Medical/scientific articles on the Internet are widely contradictory.

I was today looking at information on d mannose and the following left me just as confused:

https://www.sweetcures.com/blogs/health-hub/making-your-urine-more-alkaline

Quote:  Changing your diet can cause urine pH to become less acidic which can help support a healthy bladder.
Recent research shows there are many significant health benefits associated with a urine pH closer to neutral than previously thought. Or more specifically, a less acidic urine. A highly acidic urine pH is now thought to be less effective at restricting bacterial growth in the Urinary Tract and the formation of Kidney Stones. By reducing your intake of acidifying foods and increasing alkalising foods, your diet can adjust the pH of urine and saliva, though the pH of other areas of the body will remain largely unaffected.

For me, it is important to get to grips with this because as I said, I was given advice by a urologist that I should aim for an acid urinary environment and here this company that produces d-mannose says the exact opposite.

The above also has dietary implications, because this is what dictates whether we create either an acid or alkaline environment in our body.

Which is most beneficial - alkaline or acid for our urinary system?

[CLKD]

I would suggest that the Urologist would be the person to trust because the Company selling a product may not have done research.

[Ann B]

I would suggest that the Urologist would be the person to trust because the Company selling a product may not have done research.

Thank you for your reply CLKD.  I take your point regarding a company promoting a product.  This site, however, exists to share research, anecdotal evidence, and individual experience.  There are numerous instances on this site where it is reiterated that doctors including specialists don't seem to be that 'expert' when it comes to matters menopause and uti etc.

[CLKD]

I'm confused: 'this site' ?

[Sage 🍃]

AnnB, I think your question is very interesting and pertinent. When in doubt I always try to find the answers in scientific articles .

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00494.2017

Read this one and see if it helps. I'm more than happy to discuss it with you. It's not the definitive answer to your question, it's just a starting point for our discussion.

[Ann B]

I'm confused: 'this site' ?

By 'this site' I mean the 'Menopause Matters' site and forums.

[Ann B]

AnnB, I think your question is very interesting and pertinent. When in doubt I always try to find the answers in scientific articles .

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00494.2017

Read this one and see if it helps. I'm more than happy to discuss it with you. It's not the definitive answer to your question, it's just a starting point for our discussion.

Hi Sage

Thank you for your reply and the reference.

I had a quick look at what is a highly technical paper.  The focus on diet and the male-to-female differences in p.h. is interesting.  I will have to give the article more time.

When I mentioned this topic before on another thread, I was surprised that Kathleen said that she had never experienced a UTI.  There may be a correlation (albeit a possibly spurious one) in the fact that she is a vegan/vegetarian, although I don't know for how long.  This article: 

https://www.diagnoxhealth.com/blog/what-to-make-of-the-ph-level-of-urine

says that "A diet rich in greens and vegetables, such as kale, spinach, celery, etc., will lead to alkaline urine (pH>7)".

This acid-alkalinity conundrum is imo worthy of consideration and investigation.

I supplement with magnesium which I don't want to stop because of significant health benefits for me.  The urologist suggested I stop taking it because of its alkalising effect, which may contribute to UTI.  I take the magnesium last thing at night.  The alkalising effect is just overnight.  My urine returns to the acid range quite quickly following breakfast.

Ann

[Sage 🍃]

Yes, it's technical but I'm afraid that's how science works and the less technical information out there is not very good tbh 

This is the last paragraph, which is where science is now regarding this field, all the rest you read on non-scientifc websites is just speculation.

'Our work immediately raises a number of potential questions for the future. Especially important would be the relationship of GI anion to menarche, menopause, and hormone changes during the menstrual cycle. As already noted, this lies far from our present state of knowledge.'

Coincidentally, I'm a vegetarian, I'm not vegan but I don't like eating dairy and eggs, so I'm a functional vegan, I guess 

There are many things that can influence urine pH (at the risk of being pedantic, this is the correct spelling), but the body has many mechanisms to keep it under the 'normal' range, which currently is 4.5-8.

[Kathleen]

Hello ladies.

Kathleen here!

It is true that I have never had a UTI however I was diagnosed with an auto immune disease the same month I had what turned out to be my last ever period, all of thirteen years ago.
 In an effort to help myself I slowly embarked on a meat and dairy free diet as animal foods are pro inflammatory and plant foods are anti inflammatory. I am therefore also a functional vegan and I believe that this has helped me remain in remission from my disease.
I also wonder if eating this way is  helpful because of the foods that are excluded as much as those that are not. I have mentioned before on this forum that research into the consumption of chicken was found to cause e coli UTIs in a group of women and their infections resolved when they stopped eating or preparing this meat. The research is mentioned on a highly respectable YouTube site called NutritionFacts.org and is certainly worth a look for any UTI sufferers.

Wishing you well ladies and take care.

K.

[Wrensong]

Kathleen, thank you for raising this.

The research is mentioned on a highly respectable YouTube site called NutritionFacts.org

I've listened to the podcast.  Dr Greger is referring to chicken in the U.S. I think.  Do you know whether there is similar prevalence of bacteria in the UK chicken supply?
Wx

[CLKD]

Kathleen - does this include chicken grown, slaughtered and prepared in the UK?

How much chicken would 1 need to ingest to have a significant effect? 

[Kathleen]

Hello Wrensong and CLKD

I imagine that the chicken referred to is pretty much the same product we have here. I understand that battery farmed animals are subject to disease because of the conditions they are kept in. I also believe that the reason  they are given antibiotics in their feed is to keep them alive long enough to achieve slaughter weight.

Perhaps chickens raised in different ways would be healthier but if the e coli found in the research is present in all chickens that may not make much difference.

I have only eaten chicken a handful of times as I don't like it, infact I don't like meat very much so excluding it from my diet was easy lol. Instead I get my protein from lots of beans and I have recently added soybeans into the mix as they are said to be a good source of phytoestrogens. Time will tell of course.

I think if I were experiencing frequent UTIs I would experiment with avoiding chicken and seeing of that made a difference.

Wishing you both well and take care.

K.

[CLKD]

Tnx.  One should never 'imagine' nor 'assume' anything 1 sees written.  However, if chicken is prepared correctly the e.coli and salmonella bacteria will be killed in the cooking process. 

Certainly the production of chickens in the UK is totally different from that in the US, which is why there is a huge movement not to import US meat as it's washed in choloreine [sp] B4 being put into the supermarket shelves.  Not something that the UK is particularly keen on.

Both e.coli and salmonella are present in most humans, when 1 is healthy neither poses a problem.  We eat chicken on a regular basis, at least twice a week and I don't suffer with UTIs.  Chicken as a child was a treat on a Sunday because it was so expensive.  Then producers found a way of battery farming, which DH and I avoid.  Both Grannies raised chickens free range and at the end of their life were put into the stew pot - the chickens, not the Grannies ;-).

My gut won't tolerate beans  .......... other than freshly pulled runners, broads and French.

[Wrensong]

Thanks Kathleen. The thing that surprised me from the Greger podcast was the finding of high levels of pathogens in organic chicken as well as in the battery farmed birds  .

Food for thought indeed.

What do you think about the chicken issue Ann B?
Wx

[Ann B]

Thanks Kathleen. The thing that surprised me from the Greger podcast was the finding of high levels of pathogens in organic chicken as well as in the battery farmed birds  .

Food for thought indeed.

What do you think about the chicken issue Ann B?

Wx

Hi Wrensong

I had discussed the chicken issue with Kathleen previously and I found the Greger site quite interesting about the chicken, and generally.

I believe the theory is plausible.  However, I also believe there is so much to consider in our environment that could be potentially harmful, actually trying to significantly change your lifestyle to deal with all the threats would be quite a task.  I think I would have to go 'off grid' and live off the land etc.

I have always been scrupulous when handling and cooking chicken because of the potential threat of salmonella.  I wash all utensils, dishes, and cutting blocks at the highest setting in the dishwasher.  I use boiling water to wash knives if the dishwasher is not ready for a full wash.  I also use separate cutting blocks for meat and vegetables.

I could use disposable gloves when handling the chicken but rely on scrupulous hand washing instead.

Due to the health appeal of consuming less red meat, chicken has been a substitute in our family menu.  It forms a sizeable quantity of our protein consumption.   I have thought of moving us over to more vegetarian meals, but I don't have a wide repertoire.  I bought the cookery books but haven't gotten around to experimenting with vegetarian dishes yet.  I will though.    A disincentive for me being more vegetarian is that my IBS tends to flare when I eat greater quantities of fruit and veg.

Wrensong.  What do you think about whether urine p.h. should be more towards the alkaline or acid end of the spectrum in order to inhibit UTI bacteria, and how this could and maybe should be contolled by a possibly more alkaline or acid food-oriented diet?

Being more vegetarian could be alkalising and meat eating could be more acidifying.  Do vegetarians/vegans like Kathleen experience fewer or indeed no UTIs?

It is 'food for thought'!

Ann