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Author Topic: HRT or combination pill  (Read 1052 times)

joannepat21

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HRT or combination pill
« on: July 26, 2022, 05:55:04 PM »

Hello,
I’m 47 yrs old and 14 wks on estraderm patches, Utrogestan but recently added in the mini pill Cerazette for suspected endometriosis.
Since starting my HRT journey, I’ve had nothing but terrible endo flares. Pelvic pain, bloating, frequent urination, uti’s, constipation etc.
I’m in such a dilemma.
Do I stay on this regime with the hopes the adding the mini pill will eventually do it’s thing and help with the pain or
Do I scrap HRT altogether and go back on the combination pill?
Do I just live with the peri symptom’s of extreme fatigue, anxiety, dizziness and heat surges but be endo pain free?
The other reason I’m on HRT is because of a family history of osteoporosis.
Currently on the waiting list for diagnostic laparoscopy, but in the mean time can’t live like this! :'(
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joziel

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Re: HRT or combination pill
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2022, 10:40:14 AM »

Hi there --

I also have endo and am on HRT. I was until recently on the desogestrel POP too, for endo - and it worked well. I am now on 200mg of utrogestan instead and it is currently working ok, although only 1.5wks in...

A few questions...

1) How long have you been on the desogestrel with the HRT?

2) How much estrogen are you taking? (dosage of patch or gel or whatever)

3) How did you introduce the estrogen, what was your starting dose, when did your peri symptoms go, and how long did you stay on each dose before increasing? Where in all of this did the endo pain start?

4) Are you taking the desogestrel/cerazette and the utrogestan continuously? (no break, every day)

5) What were things like for you in terms of suspected endo pain, before HRT?

PS just a little note about the laparoscopy... if you're going to go to the lengths of having a lap (I did!) then it's probably worth having a treatment lap where they will remove any endo found (within what they feel they can cope with). Otherwise you end up having to go have a second surgery to get it removed, rather than just one and done... Whether you have a treatment lap or diagnostic lap, really make sure it is with an endo specialist and someone who is with a British Endo Centre of Excellence: https://www.bsge.org.uk/centre/  You can ask your GP to refer you there - you have the right to request treatment by whoever you choose.

If you have a lap with someone who is not listed there, they 1) might not identify endo because it can sometimes be hard to see (even when it causes a lot of pain), they have to know the places it hides and the different ways it can appear - there are so many women who have had laps with general gynaes and been told they don't have endo, only to have it diagnosed at a later lap by a specialist... and 2) they won't be able to excise it, if you have it treated - they will likely use ablation (laser) which doesn't remove the roots of it and it will return. (That's what happened to me.) Be sure that whoever you see has experience with excision - which is trickier than ablation/lasering it off. That means seeing an endo specialist.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 10:46:40 AM by joziel »
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joannepat21

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Re: HRT or combination pill
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2022, 11:39:20 AM »

Thanks Joziel for your reply.
I only added in the pop 7 days ago so definitely need to give it a bit longer.
I’m currently on estraderm 50mg but started on 25mg.
By about wk 3 I noticed a calmness and the fatigue had vanished, but it was short lived and that’s when the endo flares kicked in. I continued till my 6 wk check then my GP upped my patch to 50mg.
My GP asked the meno specialist for some advice and they wrote back saying to go back on a continuous regime of the low dose contraceptive pill, but my Gp thought because of my age and family history of osteoporosis, that I stay on the HRT but start using continuous Utrogestan. Continuous caused me more pain and so a different Gp told me to stop continuous Utrogestan and go back to cyclical days 15-26 but add in the the mini pill.
Before HRT, I have had 10 plus years of pelvic pain, ovulation pain, bloating, IBS, constipation, frequent urination, uti’s, painful intercourse, lower back pain hip pain etc. Never had heavy bleeds, always been quite light and over the last few years only lasting 1-2 days, but extremely painful.
I was on a low dose contraceptive pill before HRT which did help but then the peri symptoms of fatigue, anxiety insomnia etc took over, hence the reason for starting HRT.
I Do have my concerns over having a lap and tbh, would prefer not to,  as I know there’s no cure and know that reoccurrence can happen after surgery anyway.
I think for me, I would like to know if it is endo and nothing sinister and to start some sort of treatment.
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joziel

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Re: HRT or combination pill
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2022, 12:06:58 PM »

I can understand wanting to have surgery to get a diagnosis and to rule out anything else - I was the same. I got myself worked up into a total state about them having missed something potentially life-threatening (since all tests and scans came back okay and I was still in pain) that I just wanted the lap to draw a line under it and find out for sure that everything in there looked okay. I'm assuming you've had an ultrasound, pelvic and vaginal? Have you had an MRI? Sometimes they can diagnose endo with those imaging approaches, it depends on how bad it is - they will be able to see adhesions much more easily than superficial endo. But it's worth a try to avoid a surgery... 

I'd say...

1) If you noticed things improved with peri symptoms on the 25mcg patch and you haven't noticed any further improvement with peri symptoms moving to the 50mcg patch, then reduce back down to 25mcg - or possibly to 37.5mcg. I'm sure you know that estrogen can 'feed' endo, so whilst you need some estrogen to prevent peri symptoms and for future health, you don't want to be taking more than you need or you risk making endo worse. Take the minimal amount of estrogen you need to keep your peri symptoms away and no more than that. (That is also BMS guidance anyway - if you increase estrogen to try to address remaining symptoms, but those remaining symptoms then don't improve, you should reduce back down to the previous dose.) You might be able to increase estrogen again in future, but it's best to reduce and stabilise things with the endo now - and once things are stable and fine, you can increase again very gradually if needed.

2) You definitely need to give the desogestrel longer than a week to work. Probably 2-3 months... But you should be taking utrogestan continuously as well, even if you are peri. It doesn't make any sense to be taking two types of progesterone/progestin and for one to be continuous (desogestrel) and one to be sequential (utrogestan) - that is only going to confuse your body as to whether it is supposed to be having a bleed or not. Women on the POP take progestins daily so I don't understand why some doctors get very confused about telling patients to use progesterone daily, when needed - they may get breakthrough bleeds, but so do women on the POPs(!). I'm not sure what they are worried about... And if you have endo, you need to suppress it with ongoing progesterone, not stop and start progesterone which is giving endo lesions time to build up for a bleed - just like your uterus does. This is the advice from Chris Mann, endo specialist - if you listen to the Dr Louise Newson podcast and the episode where she interviews him (search for it).

3) If you did want to go back to a combined pill, Zoely and Qlaira are the combined pills with body identical estrogen in them (instead of the synthetic estrogen in most pills). They do still have synthetic progestins though. And you will need to stop the combined pill at age 50 - in 3 years time - which just means more upheaval around the corner, so it makes sense to try to settle on a regime for many years into the future with the endo. Endo does best with stable settled hormones. (Another reason not to keep stopping and starting the progesterone.) There is a continuous oral HRT called Femoston Conti which you could investigate more if you wanted. The progestin in it is supposed to be good for endo and I think Flossie on here, who also has/had endo, used it very happily for many years. It is quite low dose estrogen though and if you need more, might be hard to increase. (As with all combined HRT products.)

4) There is also the option of increasing the utrogestan to 200mg continuously. I am doing that at the moment, but have stopped the desogestrel POP to do it. (The POP was working fine but I wanted to try this just because I'd prefer not to take synthetic progestins unless I need to.) But you should be able to take 200mg continuously as well as the desogestrel POP - that should really quiet things down for you, alongside reducing the estrogen to just what you need. Lara Briden (see 6) recommends 300mg of utrogestan daily for endo...

5) With the frequent urination and the UTIs, be sure that you are on local estrogen too (Vagifem) - many women need that to prevent issues down there, as well as systemic HRT. It is such a low dose, it is not likely to cause issues for endo.

6) Get a copy of Lara Briden's 'Hormone Repair Manual' - she has a whole chapter on endo and very useful natural treatments you can add in. Zinc at 30mg/day, NAC 3x daily for 3 months then a break. Berberine for an 8wks stretch. NAC has been found to be as effective as some prescription meds for endo: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3662115/  She also has a lot of great blogs on the same issues which I don't think I'm allowed to post here but you can search for 'Lara Briden blog endometriosis'. She recommends up to 300mg of utrogestan daily which many US doctors do - so using 200mg daily is not 'out there'...

« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 12:10:44 PM by joziel »
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joannepat21

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Re: HRT or combination pill
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2022, 12:48:00 PM »

Thanks so much for all that information. It all makes sense. I even questioned my GP about being on Utrogestan continuously and her response was “that’s an awful lot of progesterone at once, let’s go back to sequential” so now back on cyclical.
Will going back to continual Utrogestan right now throw my system off again or should it be quite a smooth transition?
I’ve had a pelvic ultrasound and transvaginal over the years and had a transvaginal back in March where no endo was picked up but just said my ovaries were “featureless with a nice thin endometrium” and the low dose contraceptive pill, I was on at the time, was doing its job.
Yeah, totally agree that I should give the pop more time and tbh need it for contraception but I definitely think I should stay on the HRT as I’m not getting any younger and will probably be needed in a few years time anyway. This way I’m protecting my future health also.
I have tried the Vagifem before and not sure if it was coincidence but after a few weeks of feeling good with it, I developed a green discharge and uti. I’m honestly so flipping sensitive down there that even have to watch what kind of sanitary towels I use.
Thanks so much for the attachments. I already use the Newson app and  I will most definitely have a look at the others. 😊

« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 12:54:44 PM by joannepat21 »
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joziel

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Re: HRT or combination pill
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2022, 01:11:52 PM »

" I even questioned my GP about being on Utrogestan continuously and her response was “that’s an awful lot of progesterone at once, let’s go back to sequential” so now back on cyclical. "

I was on 100mg utrogestan continuously and the desogestrel POP, no problem. Lara Briden recommends up to 300mg daily (without estrogen, if not needed) for endo. What is too much progesterone is very individual really. Some people can't tolerate any, even vaginally - others (like me) can take all kinds and all doses. (Fortunately as I have enough to deal with, with my estrogen sensitivity!!) You can only try it and see...

Don't forget that utrogestan is a progesterone and desogestrel is synthetic, so it's a progestin. Not a progesterone. The only things they both do commonly is thin the uterine lining. Their effects on many other parts of the body are completely different from each other.

It should be a smooth transition and help to quiet your endo and ovaries to go back to continuous now. With the desogestrel added in, and especially if you can reduce your estrogen a notch, I think you won't have the added pain you felt last time. It might take a few months for everything to stabilise though.

I think the UTI was probably a coincidence, but there are other types of local estrogen you can use - like Ovestin for eg, which is a cream.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2022, 01:14:23 PM by joziel »
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