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[joziel]

Hey folks - It's tricky when there are multiple different people to reply to 

Sweettooth said >Ps does anyone know which probiotics are best for histamine etc?

Yes there is a great article here on that: https://healinghistamine.com/blog/best-probiotics-for-histamine-intolerance/

You can search for the probiotics mentioned there separately by yourself but you can also buy specifically 'histamine friendly' ones from Seeking Health - called ProBiota HistaminX and they do another called Probiota Bifido - both of which are okay. (I'm assuming it's within forum rules to actually mention things you can buy somewhere. I would give you links to them, except I've just had an email from admin saying they've removed many of my posts with commercial links because apparently posting commercial links is strictly against forum rules. So if threads don't make sense now, that's why.... I honestly thought that meant I couldn't advertise products, not that I couldn't post links to products - but apparently it means the latter.... )

And yes you can take DAO before each meal. You might get through a lot of it and it might be quite expensive though.

Tora said > I just meant that you felt better immediately before the diet than you do now. Would it not be better to return to a few decent nights’ sleep on regular healthy diet and then make a decision about changing E dose?

Oh right. Well, this diet I'm on really shouldn't be responsible for how I feel now. There's no reason that a low histamine diet would be causing me to experience a more intense version of these symptoms. And I wouldn't think that returning to a regular diet would help at all either. In fact I'm a bit worried that if histamine is a factor in any way that returning to a normal diet will make things worse. It is probably just coincidence or about the length of time I've been going through all this leading to things intensifying...

Yes, the farting and slow metabolism stopped when I increased estrogen. But it was pretty good at the 50 patch. (Not at the 25.) So I am hoping that will still be okay. I think I do have some FodMap food issues as there are some foods which make me bloated and fart(!)... they include aubergines, leeks, squash and avocados. But I don't totally avoid them, I just know I will be a bit uncomfortable(!).

I've never taken an anti-histamine before last night. I took it only at 3am, so I already wasn't sleeping. At 4am I managed to get some kind of sleep for the first time and dozed till 7.30am. I actually don't feel tired now (meaning, that I want to sleep), I feel exhausted and jet-lagged and like I need sleep, but not tired. Which in itself, is part of the problem.

[Scampidoodle]

Thanks for the DAO advice, still awaiting mine but I will try two before meals. As for probiotics, Invivo are good for these and majority are good for histamine intolerance. You can email them too, for advice. I took Bio.Me Barrier for a while.

Joziel, did the antihistamine make any difference for you. I know when I first went on antihistamines I took one in the morning each day but still woke with palpitations. Then I was advised to take morning and night and that did help.

If you can tolerate dropping your E, I think this may more difference than diet. Maybe try that first and see if you’re ok on the new dose before maybe trying antihistamines morning and night?

You don’t have to take them forever. A lot of people can drop to one a day when they’ve rebalanced or even nothing and just take on a bad day when E is higher xx

[Scampidoodle]

Sorry saw your reply re AH’s Joziel. Try different antihistamines. Cetirizine makes me drowsy but not loratadine. I know they’re all non drowsy but people have different reactions to each one. My husband has hay fever and cetirizine does nothing for him but loratadine does.

[joziel]

I'm all for feeling drowsy - if I can then sleep    Unfortunately last night I felt drowsy, started to drop off, and then some primitive part of my brain woke me with a jump start each time. This happened several times over and over. Then it's like my brain 'learnt' not to try to drop off, because this unpleasant jumpy thing would happen - and then I was just wide awake.

The anti-histamine didn't really change how I felt except perhaps making me drowsy enough again to drop off. The throbbing and trembling and dozing lightly all continued.

I took off the little 12.5 patch first thing this morning, so I am now officially back on the 50 patch. 

[Pippa52]

Joziel …. Fingers crossed for you that removing the extra bit of patch really helps you to start feeling better. Xxx

[joziel]

Thanks Pippa, I know you’re going through similar 

[Gilla999]

So I've had some interesting news which I wanted to share!

Yesterday I had an E and P blood test. The last time I had them both tested was May, and I always test on day 21 of my cycle. After my Estrogen level dropped between Dec-April (whether through Covid or naturally) I increased my Lenzetto to 4 sprays and it took it back up to around the 800 pmol level, and this month's reading was 841. It's still a bit high in general I worry, but no different from how it's been the last few months.

My progesterone on the other hand which has always been about 50 nmol came back at.... 16!! That's on the peak day in my cycle and while taking 100mg Utro vaginally like I always have done. It shows a huge drop in my P level and I am absolutely sure now that it's that that has tipped me over into Urticaria, because the balance between the two is just totally out of whack (841 and 16). I actually have had a hunch that my ratio is off ever since I started on HRT in April 2021 and that that was behind the weight gain and constipation. It led me to making repeated efforts last year to lower my Lenzetto but I just couldn't do it without getting side effects and I suspect now that the issue is in fact that my Progesterone has just never been high enough for the amount of Estrogen I need to feel well. Just to also add, I know from a blood test I had done in 2018 pre entering peri menopause that naturally both my Estrogen and Progesterone levels were at the very top of the range, which for Progesterone would be circa 75nmol.

I feel like it's a bit of a Eureka! moment... just such a relief to see something that I internally felt to be true. The question now is what I do about it, and I would really  love to hear anyone's opinions or thoughts on this. I just cannot tolerate taking more Utro, even vaginally - 2 tablets just makes me a zombie the next day. So from what I can see my options are either:

1. Try using my BHRT lozenge on top of the Utro for the 12 days and hope that is enough, but because I am having histamine problems at the start of my cycle too, I suspect it isn't going to be (which isn't a surprise now that I know my P is 16 at luteal... it must be almost nothing during the first week).

2. Try taking 100mg Utrogestan vaginally continuously throughout and hope it doesn't prevent ovulation

3. Try another form of Progesterone like a synthetic one (I know absolutely nothing about these).

I really don't feel like I want to try the Mirena, I'm too nervous about not being able to take it out quickly enough.

Would really love to hear of anyone's thoughts or opinions... xx

[CrispyChick]

Interesting gilla. And as you suspected.

Is it worth trying to reduce the estrogen now you know this for sure??? Rather than trying to retrofit more prog?

At 16 nmol... It's unlikely you ovulated that month anyway. My private blood tests say over 30 defo means ovulation. It's a grey area below 30. So maybe stopping ovulation wouldn't be too bad???  I'm actually thinking it might work for me as I'm getting bad pms.

Is the 25mg bhrt a dissolvable lozenge??? I take 10mg troche. Couldnt tolerate any more.

[Scampidoodle]

I’m sure I read somewhere that taking utro throughout might just make you spot randomly. So in that sense it might not prevent ovulation. I’m sure someone on here said it wouldn’t. It might be worth a try to have a go at utro throughout. As you know you can tolerate it (the lozenge is another unknown I guess) so taking utro in the first half may take the edge off the estrogen. You could see how that goes initially and always supplement with lozenges if you feel you need it?

I feel positive for you as it’s such a low reading there must be something in it. X

[Gilla999]

I definitely ovulated Crispy as I test for it every month... but yes 15-30 is a grey area.

Yes it's a troche, 1/4 of the lozenge is 25mg. You couldn't tolerate more than 10mg, really? What were your side effects?

I'm seeing a meno specialist on Tuesday so will ask her about it all but at the moment I'm thinking 100mg Utro as normal and adding 100mg on top through the lozenge, reducing to 25mg for the first part of my cycle. That's a starting place anyway. I suspect the Meno specialist will only advise the standard "Utro, Mirena or Provera" which doesn't leave any options if you can't tolerate synthetic Prog or more than 1 Utrogestan. If only they could make Utro without the sedation side effect... sounds like money to be made for a pharma company!

I'm definitely open to trying to reduce my Estrogen - in fact I think it's needed - but I just know it will take me something like 8 months to reduce from 4 sprays to 3 for example. I really am so sensitive to drops in Estrogen and have to do it in a miniscule amounts, timed carefully every month or it's unbearable.

Thank you Scampi, I also feel positive about it 

[joziel]

Gilla, I vote for option 2 

Only because I was on utrogestan 100mg continuously and it did not stop me ovulating. It's also known that HRT isn't a contraceptive simply because it doesn't stop you ovulating at that level. I think the extra progesterone would help and also give you more stability.

If you find you get breakthrough bleeding you could do the 25 days on, 3 days off routine - scheduling a bleed for those 3 days. That is the 'old style' continuous regime so is tried and tested and kosher or whatever 

But that is very interesting theorising about the ratio between E and P. Where did you hear about this as an idea, in the first place? I've never heard of P even being measured routinely let alone the level mattering. But it is a v interesting theory.

I am feeling a bit better today, having reduced to 50. I also got my zinc and quercetin in the post and have started both. I will take a quercetin this evening before bed too. But often I can feel great until I lie down and attempt to sleep and then it all kicks off again...

[Marchlove]

Make sure you always take the zinc with food joziel.

Very interesting Gilla, I wonder why your progesterone level is so low?
I’ve not got the knowledge to advise further but I do so wish you a productive journey through all these decisions you are having to make. xx

[sweettooth]

Joziel thank you so much for that info I will certainly use it to get some.  I know what you mean when there are lots of us to relate to, I’d hate to think I was leaving someone out!

That being wakened with a shock type sensation is the pits, I had that a lot….again as one of my side effects after the vaccine and Covid, things are settling, so it won’t always be the case but horrid while you’re in that place.  I truly pray you all find peace v soon, it will happen bit by bit👍❤️❤️

[Gilla999]

Joziel I think you're right about using Utro continuously being more kosher and I imagine the meno specialist on Tuesday will recommend the same.

In terms of the balance between E and P, I've read a lot of meno specialists talking about it, I think there is a growing number of them who extol the benefits of Progesterone as much as Estrogen and talk about how important the balance is. With regards to the histamine aspect and how it interplays with both E and P, I had read a bit in my general reading but also learnt a lot through Scampi here on the forum who has had a lot of difficulty with histamine issues. I have to be honest I never really thought it "applied to me" because starting Lenzetto was such a God send for me and in general I feel so good mood wise on Estrogen and figured that "histamine stuff" didnt apply to me. . But after all the symptoms started in December and gradually got worse I recognised a lot of what Scampi had been talking about and what I'd read about, and how E and P affect and modulate it. We'll have to see how things go with the extra Progesterone! I'm glad to hear you're doing slightly better on the 50 today. I got my Zinc also today so we'll start together! I hope tomorrow continues to be a bit better for you.

Marchlove I don't understand it either - in two months it has less than halved!

[Gilla999]

Morning ladies - Joziel how was your night last night?

I had another thought this morning off the back of what you said Crispy... I wonder if there's a chance I didn't ovulate and instead what the ovulation test picked up was just my general LH level, which (if I understand correctly) would be high anyway if I haven't ovulated?  I don't really know enough about how these things work, but I was thinking - if I'm taking 100mg Utro vaginally and still the reading was only at 16nmol, I feel like my own level of P within that would have been in the category of "not ovulated"? Either that or using the Utro vaginally really adds zilch to your own levels of circulating Progesterone. I think I might do an FSH / LH test as I haven't done one in a while.

If I hadn't ovulated the last couple of months that would also potentially explain things, as I'll have zilch Progesterone and just a hell of a lot of Estrogen circulating in my body from 4 sprays of Lenzetto and my own little bit of E on top!