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[Blue Kingfisher]

Hi everyone,

I’ve been experimenting with various different types of progesterone on a conti regime and not feeling any better. The latest trial was progesterone lozenges which are not licensed but in desperate times you turn to any measures. Whilst I’ve been on the lozenges I’ve decreased my oestrogel from 5 pumps daily to 2 pumps one day & 3 the next (alternating). This is because I’m now under a different doctor who doesn’t agree with the Studd clinic that I wasn’t absorbing enough oestrogen. I’ve reduced it to this much over a six month time period.

It wasn’t their idea to put me on the lozenges, that was something I wanted to try to rule them out. Previously I’d been on 200mg Utrogestan vaginally for 7 days a month. I felt fine on the Utro (the only progesterone dose & method I’ve found to date that I can consistently tolerate) but after the bleeding had stopped and I was on day 8 after bleed I would basically be bed ridden. This is why I came off the Utro & tried conti with the lozenges. In hindsight, im wondering if the reason I felt like a toxic waste dump from day 8 to day 20 (counting day one as day one of bleed) is because I was on 5 pumps oestrogel and this was interfering with my thyroid medication.

Im hoping now, by re trying Utro sequi that I won’t hit a toxic wall from day 8 now im on the lower oestrogen. I’ve just finished 7 days on Utro. Im just wondering what kind of withdrawal bleed will happen and what this will tell me.

If I have no bleed or just very light spotting, does this mean my womb lining could be too thick and does this indicate low progesterone or low oestrogen?  If I have a more normal bleed (like I did when on 5 pumps oestrogel) presumably this means….I’m on enough oestrogen and my womb lining is likely thin enough?

I’m not very good at understanding the science I’m afraid as I mostly feel too unwell to adsorb all the information and just limp from day to day 

Thank you for any replies in advance.

Blue x

[CLKD]

That is awful 4 U! to feel so ill that you need to stay in bed.

Hysterectomy would be the final method of sorting the problems but that is major surgery, not to be undertaken lightly.  One would need to consider carefully which HRT Regime to use after to ease any residual symptoms.

You could ask your GP to refer you for a scan so that you have a base-line to work from.  I'm not sure which hormone triggers the period each month: never thought about that whilst growing up 

[Perinowpost]

Hi Blue I do the 7 days vaginally and I have a light 3 day bleed. I can cope with the bleed, it’s the progesterone withdrawal which I struggle with which is at it’s height days 8 & 9 when I feel terrible, and then slowly gets better over the next week.

I would say the only way you’d know if your womb lining was ok was to have a private scan (if doctor won’t refer you). I do this annually, from memory the last one cost £80 , and they’ve always been ok x

[Blue Kingfisher]

Thanks both for the replies. Yes, hysterectomy would be the last resort!

Perinow - so it’s progesterone withdrawal I suffer from from day 8 onwards? That’s annoying & worries me that it wasn’t my thyroid meds causing the extreme crashing & I mean extreme as can barely stand up.

I’m wondering if I’m too low on either progesterone or oestrogen as I’m having hot flashes & chronic insomnia where I’m often awake from 2:30am & unable to get back to sleep. I then do a full days work….I’m like a total Zombie!

[CLKD]

I think that you need to be referred to an endocrinologist with a knowledge of menopause and hormonal upheaval.

[Hurdity]

Hi Blue Kingfisher

Sorry you're feeling rough.

The amount of progesterone (ie being low) will not have any effect on how you feel. Taking it can lead to some insomnia often by affecting the bladder, but equally it has a sedating effect so some women feel very lethargic and tired when on it and especially groggy in the morning.

As perinowpost says it is the progesterone withdrawal that can cause extreme pms symptoms as the body reverts to normal  as the progesterone leaves the system. This can be headaches, migraine, tension, fatigue etc classic pms symptoms.

If you are having hot flushes or they have returned when you reduced the oestrogen then this is the most likely cause though I can't comment on the interction between transdermal oestrogen and thyroid meds - Wrensong knows about this. Have you had your thyroid levels checked since changing your HRT regime? I would have thought that might be an idea - but I am definitely not knoweldgeable at all on this.

Hurdity x

[AKatieD]

I had to put up my throid meds after starting HRT so you need to test your thyroid and adjust. Likely all your systems are now upset

[Blue Kingfisher]

Thank you so much for your support Hurdity & everyone else.

CLKD, I’ve been through a plethora of specialists from endo’s to gyne’s but the doctor I’m under now is my best bet to be honest for now as she is the first person I’ve come across that understands both and can prescribe for both across a broad range of options.

AKatieD, I suffer from reverse T3 and T3 is very harsh on my body - contributes to the severe crashing.
The latest regime is to take adrenal support before my thyroid meds, put my oestrogel back to alternating between 2 & 3 pumps and go back to Utro 200mg vaginally but for either 14 or 21 days of the month (not 7).

Hurdity, you were right, I had reduced my oestrogel and this was driving the chronic insomnia, I’ve put it back to the original dose and although I’m waking say 3 times a night, I can sometimes get back to sleep over the past couple of days. Im the. awake from around 5am but this is a huge improvement and one I can live with.

I was on the Studd regime before this for a couple of years on very high dose of oestrogel (5 pumps daily) and 200mg Utro vaginally 7 days a month. Studd clinic diagnosed me as progesterone intolerant but current doctor disagrees and was quite alarmed at my oestrogen dose. She tested me via saliva whereas the Studd clinic (and probably most clinics I’d imagine) use bloods. I did challenge her on the saliva Vs bloods issue and she felt the Studd clinic were good but quite old fashioned in their approach. Make of that what you will and quite honestly I don’t mind who is right as long as I start to feel better. I also feel OK on the progesterone it was the withdrawal that was totally brutal…..is that the same as ‘ Progesterone Intolerant’?

I do feel better at the moment on the Utro Vs the lozenges (although they were OK at first) and I’m hoping the higher dose of Utro for 14 days minimum doesn’t become too much for me. It could be the lozenges are an option in the future for me but at a higher dose than I was on (I was only on 10mg daily, I did try upping to 20mg daily but seemed to make things worse for some reason but I didn’t try for long). I stopped the lozenges for 8 days and had no bleed so that made me worry that I wasn’t absorbing enough progesterone to bring on a withdrawal bleed. Anyway, I was on this low dose of progesterone for almost six months so I’d imagine my body may be progesterone depleted at the moment so this new regime might work for a while at least.

She did say the adrenals will take a good year or two to heal (she ran a cortisol stress test) so I’ll just have to continue as best I can and try to be kind to myself as much as possible. She is also addressing the thyroid issue and I’m taking a prescription for that. It’s the collision of hormones I think I particularly suffer from so I have to be careful when I apply my oestrogel in relation to when I take my thyroid meds etc but as my levels are unstable currently (M
maybe now low progesterone & this is what my doctor thinks) it doesn’t always pan out the same everyday so it could be an OK day…..or it could be a ‘need to be in bed’ day.

I had a blood test earlier this week at my local surgery for my oestrogen and progesterone levels. My GP didn’t really see the point as he said your on HRT but it will be useful for me to compare the levels to where they were when I was under the Studd clinic and apparently had low oestrogen. I should add that I have no qualms with the Studd clinic and they were always very sympathetic and did their best to help me. I guess we are all different and it’s unrealistic to expect their regimes will suit everyone.

Hopefully things will start to turn in the right direction now but I already feel better on the Utro…..I just don’t know how long for!