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[juliemargaret]

Hello ladies - I’m praying somebody may have some insight or advice or endured similar. I’ll try to keep it brief. 🙈 okay I’ve been on hrt 6 months . 3 of these was gel and utrogestan on a cycle and I felt absolutely awful and no changes just worse. After 3 months we changed to patches and to date im on Estradot 100mg and 100mg utrogestan from 1st to 12th each month and vaginally. 
When I’ve finished my utro I have a 3 day bleed about 5 days after so seems my bleeds have synced in with the utro.
 I’ve been okay - not amazing at all - lack of energy or drive/motivation. Feelings of doom and dread , headaches now and again with fluctuations but I mean just ok .... i got my bloods done beginning august and my estrogen was 1795 and testo they just put “normal” . No one batted an eyelid about the high estrogen levels and I’m aware could jsut be fluctuations at the time but the Meno doc I see separate said if I felt ok that was main thing but if not then to try 75mg. I stayed on 100 but felt was just plodding along and not feeling as I felt I should so  my private Meno person agreed to prescribe Androfeme. I’ve been on it 4 weeks now 0.5 daily as prescribed and the first few were just ok no changes at all and I know have to give it time etc.... BUT last weekend from nowhere I began to feel awful. The pits. Like very low. Quietly but very internally agitated and irritable. Not much appetite so food wasn’t a thought . Like quiet rage . And the sides of both boobs are very tender - something that’s never really bothered me on hrt but what I used to get now and again before hrt.  I also noticed a bit of tinnitus here and there. To say I’ve felt bad is an understatement and my mind and mental health has felt woeful. Feel a little lighter for chatting to my husband about it but and I’ve emailed my Meno doc for advise but no reply yet - now my dilemma is could I now have TOO much estrogen OR could I  be low on estrogen or could it be the testosterone?! Can’t eve blame progesterone and not had it for 2 weeks (due to restart cycle tomorrow) so it has to be the combo of testo and estro. Could the testo now be kicking in and reacting with estrogen hence the bad fluctuation and how I’ve been this week?  I thought I was getting somewhere on my journey ... and the testo would eventually kick in (did feel a little clearer mand wise and clarity etc) but now I feel the rug had been pulled hard and fast and the last week I’ve been a wreck and it has frightened me. Do I try reducing my patch to 75?  Can anyone please help with any thoughts or sharing? X

[VictoryV]

Hi, could it be lack of progesterone or progesterone withdrawal? My last cycle, in Oestrogel only weeks I felt like I was missing the Utrogestan! Most people on here feel quite the opposite but I felt mentally better on the Utrogestan weeks.
I hope you get to the bottom of it soon.
Victoria.x

[juliemargaret]

Hi Victoria! Thank you for taking the time to respond. I did think that. I do recall feeling calm on the utro cycles past BUT this was without the testo - Androfeme- involved which is why I’ve been focusing on the testo and estro. Guess we find out the next few days as tomorrow is day 1 of my utro cycle.  Would you have any thoughts at all about estrogen possibly being too high now testo is in the mix.... or low?!  X

[pollywollydoodle]

Hi JMargaret - sounds like a bit of 'roid rage', I've had it using testim gel and also with dhea (not together). The only way I could alleviate it was to drop the dosage to 2-3 times per week. You could try that but you're also just about to re-start utro so in terms of experimentation and outcomes, you'd be better to stick with your regular E&P and continue with T then you'll know what it's doing in the mix. You now know what it does without the P but that could also just be a settling in side effect. Another option is to halve the daily dose of T if that's possible and see how it goes in conjunction with E&P.

[VictoryV]

Hi JMargaret,
I don’t know enough to know is the truth. I hope somebody with more experience comes along soon.
I’m no longer scared of upping oestrogen and I take T too but not Androfemme, I use Testogel. I am now on 4 pumps of Oestrogel having started on 2. I’m at the end of my 3rd cycle, two days with no progesterone and feeling ok. I’m finding it all very confusing!
I’ve been reading a lot about Testosterone and the norm seems to be to review it at 3 months and 6 months but I hope you’re specialist gives you some options.
I’m now on a mega sensible diet, no booze or sugar,  knocking back vits and supplements, rubbing E & T gel in, meditating, running and to be honest haven’t got a clue what’s doing what! But I’m not coming off the gels, I think I’d rather lose a leg first! 
I hope you feel better soon.
Victoria.x☀️

[pollywollydoodle]

I meant to add that under some circumstances, testosterone can convert to oestrogen and could have pushed your levels too high which might account for some of the symptoms you were describing.

a bit of info:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0378512213000121

[juliemargaret]

Oh Polly don’t ! Roid rage made me both laugh and choke 😫🙈😂.I was worried could be the testo kiicking in!!  It’s so hard ... not knowing whether to stop testo ... or reduce ... or decrease estro patches on or increase or whether  I’m needing my progesterone ! Came from nowhere just when I thought I was on the right track to ..... Not sure to where  but somewhere better than before !!!!  I’ve felt woeful. X

[juliemargaret]

Victory v - realised I called you Victoria before - apologies! It’s so hard isn’t it... confusing ... frustrating .... I’m still at a loss as to what to do as not yet heard a peep back from my Meno expert. I did have my friend tell me that possibly testo is converting to estro taking my levels higher but .... I thought this was only so if you didn’t have enough estrogen then the testo converts!  X

[juliemargaret]

Polly - just saw the link you kindly shared - thank you - I’ll take a good read 💚

[VictoryV]

No prob with name, I’m called Victoria!
If look at Reference 6 on the link PollyW posted it lists the myths about Testosterone Therapy in women. Hurdity posted it earlier today on the Testosterone thread and it’s very useful with more links.

Has the T helped you yet? I think it’s sorted my anxiety and some other stuff.

I hope your specialist answers soon.
Victoria. X

[juliemargaret]

Hi Victoria - ahh yes I realised it’s actually your name haha !
So I feel the testo has helped you asked ? well this is just it - I don’t know if the testosterone has helped as I don’t feel the best and as explained in my post? Only been 4 weeks I know and the first 3 no issues but felt okay and hoped that would get even better as it kicked in as aware can take a little time ... until the last week when rug was well and truly pulled and I felt as explained x

[Gnatty]

That posted article is great! It has really allayed any residual worries about continuing with testosterone.

[juliemargaret]

Does anyone else have any insight? Hoping someone has experienced similar I know a few years ago Ladybt28 spoke about this but don’t think she’s been on for a while!

[Hurdity]

Victory v - realised I called you Victoria before - apologies! It’s so hard isn’t it... confusing ... frustrating .... I’m still at a loss as to what to do as not yet heard a peep back from my Meno expert. I did have my friend tell me that possibly testo is converting to estro taking my levels higher but .... I thought this was only so if you didn’t have enough estrogen then the testo converts!  X

I have not read of any trials which show that adding exogenous testosterone will convert to oestrogen if oestrogen levels are low. Yes testosterone is on one biosynthetic pathway to oestrogen but that is not the same as saying it will do so under thrse circumstances. Steroid production in the body is very complex, and specific to certain tissues, and subject to all sorts of feedback mechanisms. I don't even think it is properly understood.

There just aren't the data on this I don't think, but often suggested as a possibility. From memory the trials for the discontinued Intrinsa (transdermal testosterone) patch did not show this to be the case - oestrogen levels were unchanged. I would have to check that but that's what I remember...if anyone has any recent studies I would be interested as I haven't looked for ages....

If you are peri-menopausal Jmargaret then your own cycle could be kicking in - oestrogen levels have to be consistently high in order to suppress ovulation. Yes that was a very high oestrogen level but when you are taking HRT and if you are peri-menopausal you will not know what is causing that - eg it could be at the ovulatory peak -  if you ovulated? Also oestrogen levels will vary and blood tests may to some extent be influenced by the time the bloods were drawn in relation to patch change day?

Maybe you don't need testosterone at this stage? What was your reason for wanting it?

I haven't used Androfemme but been on testosterone for over 6 years and it made a huge difference - but then I was post-menopausal and my hormone levels obviously stable so I don't get rage of any sort ( except at my husband sometimes  )

Hoping you are feeling better soon....

Hurdity x

[juliemargaret]

Hi Hurdity thanks so very much for replying . It’s all double Dutch to me the testso possibly converting to estro etc and not sure I believe it myself . I’m aware of fluctuations and the high estro figure didn’t really worry me nor did it seem to worry my gp or Meno doc. The testo - because I have been on estro and utro now and thought stabilised the estro on 100mg but knew or rather felt something was amiss and they may be testo and agreed by my Meno doc -
Low mood no motivation low libido etc. I was doing ok 3 weeks in and hoped would get better until last week but also think poss my own hormones widely fluctuated - I don’t get rage as such was more calm and unable to talk but did get angry to at came across irrational and a bit ragey to hubby but wasn’t long 🙈. Both my breasts are real
Tender at sides so wondered if was needing to maybe drop my patches to 75’mg from 100 see if helped as was thinking perhaps don’t wed as much estrogen now testo is in the mix? I’ve also felt a little internally vibrating a little and which I had when first started hrt but seemed to go with estro increase! Last hrt was first night  of my utro cycle and I didn’t sleep too well which sometimes happens first few days in to utro. I’m more bothered about the estro/testo as somethihf needs tweaking for sure but what I dont know !