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Author Topic: Estrogen dominance in menopause?  (Read 10380 times)

Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #60 on: July 04, 2020, 03:16:32 PM »

Not sure which...I had irregular bleedings until a couple of months ago.
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2020, 11:08:27 AM »

So, after a week on Kliofem I have developed side effects I never had with transdermal estrogen - acne and swollen, tender breasts...plus no visible change in symptoms, but I guess that cannot not be expected after a week (with any form of HRT).
However, it seems oral estrogen has some unpleasant side effects that transdermal E doesn't, which makes me wonder if the best solution would be to go back on Lenzetto three sprays a day and see what happens? According to the conversion charts I've found, two pumps of Estrogel (which I was previoulsy on) equal 1 spray of Lenzetto, so three sprays of Lenzetto should logically equal six pumps of Estrogel...?
Then there is the problem of progesterone...but I realise I handled cyclic P better than continuous P. So maybe I should just take Utrogestan 200 mg for twelve days a month, instead of 100 mg daily, and see if that makes a difference...I no longer have regular periods so the exact days should not matter so much any more.
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2020, 12:36:56 PM »

I don't know how much withdrawal bleeds I will have since I am 51 and periods have been irregular for the last two years. Last lab results showed FSH and LH indicative of post-menopause, plus ovaries are atrophied according to gynaecologist, so logically bleedings should stop soon on their own anyway...?
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2020, 08:29:17 PM »

Yes, because the Kliofem rapidly resulted in side effects I've NEVER had while on transdermal estrogen...like acne all over my face and very swollen and tender breasts. I don't know if all women using this drug experience this, but I find those side effects most unpleasant. It feels like I've increased almost a bra size since going on it... :(
I will just go back to three sprays of Lenzetto a day and hold it there for a while...plus go from continuous to cyclical oral Utrogestan.
At some point, this has to settle down, right...?! I guess I am just going through the most difficult phase right now, and it's said to last between one and two years...but while going through it, I most certainly would like to feel as normal as possible...and waking up seven times every night drenched in sweat and having to shower about as many times a day feels like something you should not have to go through at this time and age...
However, I feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place, with a functional doctor prescribing only bio-identical hormones (I'm seeing this doc because of my thyroid condition as most conventional doctors don't know anything about thyroid disease), and my gynaecologist who will only prescribe oral HRT...so far, oral estrogen has not been that great for me...I am sure it works for others, but I have to admit I was surprised to see how my body reacted to it after only a week...I have not had acne since I was in my teens, plus it felt like I retained a lot of fluid...after going off Kliofem, it feels like I've been going to the loo about 45 times a day...coincidence...?!
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Dotty

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2020, 06:39:31 AM »

Hi it could be the progesterone in the Kliofem that doesn't suit you. It is norethisterone. X
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Wrensong

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2020, 10:51:56 AM »

Anna, oestrogen in any form makes me retain fluid, which I then shed very noticeably during the progesterone phase of my cycle, as prog seems to have very diuretic effects for me.  But we hypothyroid ladies also retain fluid when our thyroid hormone levels are suboptimal, so I'm wondering whether you felt especially bad on the oral oestrogen because of its tendency to increase thyroid binding globulin (which we've chatted about before), effectively lowering your available thyroid hormone.

I realise with Kliofem you'll be taking both Oestradiol & the progestogen every day, but the balance of the two may not be right for you, especially given your thyroid meds have recently changed so you have several balls in the air as it were.  The Norethisterone in Kliofem is also one of the more androgenic, testosterone derived progestogens, so perhaps that explains the acne.

Sorry this doesn't seem to be the right HRT for you at this time.
Wx
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 11:24:48 AM by Wrensong »
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2020, 12:29:25 PM »

Wrensong,
No, it most definitely is not. The fact is that I already feel better on Lenzetto + cyclic P (I have read that you can also take 300 mg daily for ten days instead of 200 mg for 14 days), so maybe I don't need P daily, just cyclically...
I used to be on adrenal support, and that enabled me to take a higher dose of NDT which effectively rid me of remaining hypo symptoms. Then I weaned off it after reading on several thyroid forums that taking adrenal support long-term will make your own adrenal glands sluggish, and that you need to have your cortisol measured (preferably in saliva several times a day) regularly while on it so that your cortisol levels don't go too high or too low. That is such a hassle, not to mention expensive since you also need to ship the samples using overnight carriers such as DHL. So I just decided to go by symptoms and listen to my body.
TBH, I have not felt quite like myself since weaning off the adrenal support (Thorne Adrenal Cortex) last year. I went back on it the other day, and have now raised the NDT somewhat, this time without any ill effects. So it seems I need to balance my adrenal glands as well, and that cortisol issues may very well part of the problem all along.
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2020, 12:31:38 PM »

Dotty,
Very likely, yes.
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Wrensong

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2020, 01:02:36 PM »

Anna, I'm sorry, I have no experience of supplementation/medication for adrenal issues. 

Menopause can certainly be a challenging time for hypothyroid women, with balance hard to achieve & if you have three endocrine aspects to juggle - thyroid, menopause & adrenal insufficiency, I can't help feeling you need a good endocrinologist who can oversee the lot.  Is there really no-one you can ask to take a holistic approach?

Please don't give up hope.  I really struggled in perimenopause & for a few years post as I came late to HRT.  Now 8 years post, my HRT is still a work in progress as progesterone in all its forms is the challenge for me, but I'm persevering as QOL is too poor without oestrogen & testosterone.  It does get easier to stabilise as we get further into postmenopause & our own sex hormone fluctuations settle down.  Then we are just looking to redress deficiencies rather than battling erratic peaks & troughs of unpredictable duration.
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2020, 05:51:11 PM »

Wrensong,
Endocrinologists do not care for people who take T3 or NDT and have a lower than normal TSH. They tend to be TSH obsessed and prescribe levo only. I spent ten years on levothyroxine and it did nothing for me. However, I doubt I could find an endo near me who would accept that.
I see a doctor in Belgium trained by Thierry Hertoghe (a well-known anti-aging doctor). The doctors trained by him prescribe NDT and other bio-identical hormones. My doctor put me on hydrocortisone for a couple of years and it made me feel a lot better, but I felt uncomfortable taking it indefinitely as it tends to shut down your own adrenal glands. That is why I switched to a supplement...
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Wrensong

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2020, 07:05:26 PM »

I'm sorry that's been your experience of Endocrinologists, Anna.   :hug:  Though I struggled for many years on T4 alone, I was never well without T3, so feel very fortunate that my current Endo decided at first appt I needed to go back on it after my previous Endo had passed away, that he's continued to champion my use & that I get on better with Liothyronine than NDT, which is even more controversial here than T3.  Bloods have repeatedly shown I need T3 & I've made sure to obtain copies of the pathology reports to demonstrate that if need be.  Also feel lucky that I don't need a suppressed TSH to feel my best, as I'm well aware, as you point out, that that's another controversial issue. 

My Cons has the authority to continue to prescribe T3 though the NHS has tried to restrict its use following a big price hike a few years ago.  It's a horrible situation for patients to be in - either refused a medication they need or feeling as I do, guilty that it now costs so much.  I'm lucky though, that I only currently need a very low dose, so I'm a comparatively cheap T3 user to treat, as most patients who need it require more. 

My Endo also oversees my HRT as mentioned before & that works very well for me.  He is hugely experienced, widely respected & liked by other medics & patients alike.  He listens & obviously really cares about his patients.  The process is a partnership with my full involvement, I'm completely at ease talking to him about anything & always feel I can ask for what I need.  I see him roughly every 3 months, more frequently if needed & I can email or ring him at any time between appointments.  His care is so valuable to me that I just want the same for other patients & tend to encourage them to research & seek out someone recommended who will oversee the lot.
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2020, 12:33:59 PM »

Wrensong,
You are VERY happy to have an endo like that!!! I both envy you and am happy for you at the same time.
The functional doctor I see for my thyroid is in a different country so I only see her once a year. Of course I can email her questions, but she cannot make a new diagnosis unless she sees me IRL, so the only thing I email her about is the renewal of prescriptions. But I agree it´s far from ideal.
I seem to recall you have an in-range TSH on T3? That´s pretty unusual in my experience, but maybe it´s because you take a low dose of it...as T3 tends to suppress the TSH pretty quickly.
I have lost count of all the doctors who tried to force me off NDT and back on levo. Doctors with no knowledge of thyroid disease whatsoever, but who go by the TSH only and tend to freak out when it´s below 0...they start saying I risk a heart attack or osteoporosis.
One doctor (a GP) said to me: "I would feel more comfortable if you would go back on levo so that your TSH could normalise". Then I heard myself say: "Well, the problem is that YOU are not the one supposed to feel more comfortable, I am!"
How may other diseases are treated that way...that is, that the patient´s wellbeing and treatment response do not matter, but the only thing that does is the TSH...which is not even a thyroid hormone but a pituitary hormone???
I have seen doctors over the years who had no idea what T3 was, so did not know that T4 has to convert to T3 for symptom-relief. Doctors in general are clueless when it comes to the treatment of thyroid disease, and can only be useful to patients who do well on levo with an in-range TSH. 
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Wrensong

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2020, 10:17:43 AM »

Anna, yes my TSH is usually within range on the T4-T3 combo, never suppressed.  In fact it's usually a bit higher than my Endocrinologst would like, but at this age I feel better with a slightly higher TSH than is usually considered optimal.  As mentioned before, that was not the case in younger years - I needed my TSH to be close to suppressed before perimenopause. 

I've just found out my latest TSH is actually raised, i.e. above ref range & I now have to increase my thyroid meds to bring it down.  That can only be because my Oestradiol (patch) dose was increased a few months ago - this is the first TFT since then.  Frustratingly, I've consistently found that taking even transdermal oestradiol affects my requirements for thyroid replacement.  Conventional wisdom has it that only oral oestrogen increases thyroid binding globulin & consequently need for thyroid hormone.  My feeling is, as with so much relating to hypothyroidism, they need to rewrite the text books!!

My T3 is always below bottom of ref range, despite taking it as part of my thyroid replacement meds, the latest T3 result being quite a bit below range.  That's because my Endocrinologist's instructions are no meds before testing, so my last dose is always 24+ hours before bloods are done & as we know, T3 has a short half life.  Yes, my T3 dose is also tiny, so there is little to show at time of testing, but it does show lowish-mid range if tested within 3-4 hours of taking T3.  Really I need to take another dose or two every day as most patients on T3 do, but can't currently seem to manage this with a broken thermostat & homoeostasis so badly compromised by menopause!  Now a good few years postmenopause my HRT is still a work in progress.

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I have lost count of all the doctors who tried to force me off NDT and back on levo. Doctors with no knowledge of thyroid disease whatsoever, but who go by the TSH only and tend to freak out when it´s below 0...they start saying I risk a heart attack or osteoporosis.

I'm so sorry Anna, the widespread resistance towards the use of T3 & NDT is a tragedy for those patients who are unwell on Thyroxine alone.  Like you, I was repeatedly warned that osteoporosis & heart disease would likely result if I continued to take the T3 bloods always show I can't make enough of for myself.  What less enlightened medics often don't take into consideration is that the consequences of being on inadequate thyroid replacement are also serious.  It makes me both angry & very upset that the needs of this significant minority of patients are widely disregarded.

Also seems sadly ironic that medical opinion seems to be open to the evidence that there is a very big range of responses to infection with COVID-19, from asymptomatic individuals, through respiratory & renal failure, stroke, cardiac complications etc . . . to death.  And yet hypothyroid patients must all fit the mould of having classic symptoms of underactivity & respond well to Thyroxine alone.  Judging by what's reported on here, many doctors seem to think that any woman not having flushes can't be menopausal either.  The cynic in me wonders whether the difference in taking note has anything to do with the fact that COVID seems to have worse effects in men than women & many more women than men become hypothyroid (& menopausal!)  I'm not a classic hypothyroid patient, I'm underweight & lie awake at night in a raging inferno, yet according to my latest TSH I still need to increase my thyroid medication, which will only burn off more calories . . . raising body temperature in the process.  It's all so complex & I know so well the sense of isolation that results when we can't get the validation or medical help we need to recover & get on with our lives.

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One doctor (a GP) said to me: "I would feel more comfortable if you would go back on levo so that your TSH could normalise". Then I heard myself say: "Well, the problem is that YOU are not the one supposed to feel more comfortable, I am!"
How may other diseases are treated that way...that is, that the patient´s wellbeing and treatment response do not matter, but the only thing that does is the TSH.

I absolutely hear you Anna & share your frustration.  I nearly missed your last post & sometimes go weeks without following the forum.  I hate to think of any hypothyroid patient struggling alone with worries, especially at such a horrendous time as menopause, so if you want to chat about anything & there's no-one around, please send me a PM.  I try to check for those if I'm not reading the forum regularly, but strangely they don't always come through to email.
Wx
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 10:28:44 AM by Wrensong »
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Anna69

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2020, 03:55:05 PM »

Thanks, Wrensong, it´s always good to know there is someone to chat to about thyroid disease which is of course not the direct subject of this thread... :)Will definitely take you up on that offer some time.
I´a member of a thyroid forum, and every day there are patients telling the same story over and over again: about not being allowed to switch to T3 + T4 or NDT, about being forced to stay on a dose of levo that keeps their TSH in range regardless of symptoms, about not having their FT3 levels measured and often not FT4 either (many doctors only order TSH), about how doctors refuse to listen to them and are patronising and condescending. When their symptoms scream hypo. doctors declare them "well within range" and offer them anti-depressants, weight loss drugs, and HRT instead. Some may need HRT, for sure, but it´s true that menopause and thyroid disease symptoms sometimes overlap. I´ve learned from the forum that low thyroid hormone levels (on cellular level, regardless of what´s in your blood) can cause symptoms such as night sweats and insomnia - symptoms often associated with menopause.
I cannot help but wonder if it´s because most thyroid patients are women that it´s so easy for doctors to dismiss them...???
Talk to you soon!
Anna
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Wrensong

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Re: Estrogen dominance in menopause?
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2020, 06:42:04 PM »

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thyroid disease which is of course not the direct subject of this thread... :)
  Yes we've been pretty naughty there ;D! Have been conscious of that since my mentioning it meandering a few pages back!  But since it was your thread . . . & at that point you said you didn't feel thyroid issues were irrelevant to its course . . . I was happy to chat thyroid. :whist:
Glad you find the thyroid forum helpful though.  I'm not a member of any other forum.  Take care Anna.
Wx
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