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[Sammiejane]

Hi all

I have spoke to a tricologist who specializes in hair loss and generally women even going through menopause don't necessarily have to have thin hair it's all to do with hormonal imbalance

Between all three sex hormones estrogen progesterone and testosterone as women age there ovaries stop producing as much estrogen and progesterone as disappeared and testosterone is higher , all 3 hormones need to be supplemented through hrt I believe to achieve a balance .

When women's ovaries are removed they loose all 3 hormones and what hrt does is bring levels back to when we were in our child bearing years pre menopausal or pre peri menopause in order to achieve this all 3 hormones need to be supplemented to get a balance , when ovaries are removed hormones plummet if you add in estrogen yes u feel slightly better but if like me it's not enough something's missing and that is because the ratio of estrogen to now progesterone and testosterone is higher creating an imbalance I believe progesterone and testosterone need to added progesterone isn't in our bodies just to protect the uterus it also has an effect on our brain our bones receptor cells in our bodies .

I am in Estrogel 2 pumps and having not lost any hair 5 years after hysterectomy and suddenly loosing hair after adding in estrogen then maybe the above theory is right because my other hormones are still low but I also believe that maybe Estrogel does cause thinning scalp hair I have just swapped to a patch to see if hair is any different I'm experiementing if not I will go back to the gel unless I feel better on the patch then I will add in progesterone , I swapped to a patch because I wasn't obsorbing from the gel and the higher I went the worse I felt I believe due to more of an imbalance .

[KiltedCupid]

Hi all

I have spoke to a tricologist who specializes in hair loss and generally women even going through menopause don't necessarily have to have thin hair it's all to do with hormonal imbalance

Between all three sex hormones estrogen progesterone and testosterone as women age there ovaries stop producing as much estrogen and progesterone as disappeared and testosterone is higher , all 3 hormones need to be supplemented through hrt I believe to achieve a balance .

When women's ovaries are removed they loose all 3 hormones and what hrt does is bring levels back to when we were in our child bearing years pre menopausal or pre peri menopause in order to achieve this all 3 hormones need to be supplemented to get a balance , when ovaries are removed hormones plummet if you add in estrogen yes u feel slightly better but if like me it's not enough something's missing and that is because the ratio of estrogen to now progesterone and testosterone is higher creating an imbalance I believe progesterone and testosterone need to added progesterone isn't in our bodies just to protect the uterus it also has an effect on our brain our bones receptor cells in our bodies .

I am in Estrogel 2 pumps and having not lost any hair 5 years after hysterectomy and suddenly loosing hair after adding in estrogen then maybe the above theory is right because my other hormones are still low but I also believe that maybe Estrogel does cause thinning scalp hair I have just swapped to a patch to see if hair is any different I'm experiementing if not I will go back to the gel unless I feel better on the patch then I will add in progesterone , I swapped to a patch because I wasn't obsorbing from the gel and the higher I went the worse I felt I believe due to more of an imbalance .

Sammiejane - I agree. We do need all 3. I'm extremely intolerant to progesterone but I've found myself using very small amounts of progesterone cream when I think it's appropriate. I believe there are some available online which gynaes advise is suitable for balance. This is not for uterine protection but to balance oestrogen, particularly in hysterectomised women as they are almost barren of any hormones.

You might find it useful to have a look at HysterSisters website if you haven't already. These ladies often use small amounts of progesterone cream to balance their oestrogen. If you're sure your oestrogen level is optimal and have ruled out thyroid, anaemia or vitamin b deficiencies your hair shedding may be attributable to either progesterone or testosterone imbalance.

I shed hair on Oestrogel, not masses but definitely shedding and this stopped when I moved to patches so hopefully you'll see a difference now you've changed. I wasn't absorbing well on gel.

[JayJay]

Hi
Very interested in your comments, as I have just replied to SJ as I think we have similar issues re thinning hair on the Oestogel and a possible hormonal imbalance.
I do find the gel difficult to rub in, so maybe it is not absorbing as it should although I use it on the soft skin of inner thighs.
I have not had children, nor a hyster, for info.
Which patch have you swopped to?
Were you recommended a specific patch to prevent hair loss/thinning?
Jay

[JayJay]

I appreciate all your responses.   Thank you, Hurdity.
Thoroughly understand I will never feel as good again as I once did, but just would like to get the best 'me' I can at the moment.
Must say I have been happy with the gel generally, although it is a bit of a pain (what isn't??!).
However, I do have concerns with my hair thinning, which I think has got worse.  It may of course be due to general ageing, but whatever is causing it - I am not happy.  The front and temples are particularly bad, and my hairdresser says it could be 'hormonal' but I didn't push her any further as she is young and obviously thinks I am just an old bag, so why should I really care?
Have tried the test gel, and although I did feel energised on it (1 teeny blob twice per week), I noticed after 2 or 3 weeks that strong, dark hairs had started growing on my upper lip.  A 14 year old boy would have been proud, but it really put me off as the hair on my head is fair and fine and I have little body hair, which is a good thing.
I like the convenience of the patches - is there a patch which makes your hair grown thick and fast (oest only, as I am on prog Ugest) ?
If it could also make me tall, slim and gorgeous with a smaller nose, then that would be a bonus 
Jay

  - if only eh?!

The patch won't have any different effect on hair than gel as it's all estradiol - except you might absorb a different amount from one than the other. Oestrogen itself won't make your hair thin - it's what makes us feminine - as well as having a decent amoiunt of testosterone ( for hair growth not femininity). The balance needs to be right ( between Oestrogen and T) I think for maximum benefit.

Maybe you are reacting to one of the fillers in the gel? Have you looked up the ingredients (is it oestrogel?)? I think there are women who are sensitive to one of the ingredients ( there aren't many in oestrogel)?

I've been using Estradot patches for years. Currently 62.5 mcg. My hair is much much thinner than it used to be - but it isn't thinning as such though - well not noticeably - but you expect that after menopause (thinner hair) - due to general reduction in oestrogen and teststerone levels (presumably) despite some replacement.  The levels (from HRT) are nowhere near what they are when I was fertile and menstruating! Gone are the thick lustrous locks!!! Straw comes to mind now!!!

If you look at most very old ladies their hair is very thin - so I presume this is hormonal as levels drop off considerably and especially testosterone, androgens generally towards the end of our lives?

Unless you have an underlying condition causing the hair thinning ( I have no expertise on this but there are others on here who do...  maybe do a search from the home page - but not sure what you would search for as it's quite a general topic....) then you need more hormones!!

I do sympathise though. Hope you find an answer to thickening your hair!

Hurdity x

Hi Hurdity
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.
I think the Holy Grail lies in the balance of the hormones, as you said, and it is possible that I am not absorbing sufficient estrogen from the gel.  This would be a shame, because the gel is relatively easy to use, but I would change to a patch if necessary.
Do you think it is likely the prog Ugesteron (sp) is causing the hair thinning?
Jay

[KiltedCupid]

Hi
Very interested in your comments, as I have just replied to SJ as I think we have similar issues re thinning hair on the Oestogel and a possible hormonal imbalance.
I do find the gel difficult to rub in, so maybe it is not absorbing as it should although I use it on the soft skin of inner thighs.
I have not had children, nor a hyster, for info.
Which patch have you swopped to?
Were you recommended a specific patch to prevent hair loss/thinning?
Jay

Hi JayJay - I've pretty much worked my way through them all and find I absorb differently on each one. Estradot made me feel ill, really ill, not sure why, Evorel were the most powerful initially and then tailed off quickly, femseven were good but defo didn't last 7 days, more like 5 - sooooo, I've settled on estraderm. For me, they have a really even dose life - no obvious peaks and troughs, but this is obviously only my personal experience.

I also take a lot of vitamin c and vitamin b supplements, the b supplements include high biotin which is essential for hair growth, along with a hair skin and nails supplement. It's also worth having your ferritin levels checked, mine were borderline recently so I've been glugging on Floradix. It's all worked, not sure which elements and possibly all in combination, but shedding has stopped and I can see new growth. It's taken 2-3 months, it's not overnight but I feel better overall with the supplements.

[Sammiejane]

Kilted Cupid

Can I ask what patch you swapped to and also what progesterone cream u use ?

Also have you added in testosterone.  ?

[KiltedCupid]

Kilted Cupid

Can I ask what patch you swapped to and also what progesterone cream u use ?

Also have you added in testosterone.  ?

Yes, of course, I currently use a 25mcg estraderm patch, changed twice weekly, a tiny blob of testim twice per week and am currently eeking out FemSeven sequi patches on a 6 week cycle. I'm well post meno.  I cut the femseven in half so it's the same dose as my oestrogen patch. Please bear in mind, we're all very different in how we absorb and I'm not advocating estraderm as the hair growth patch, rather, it's being absorbed and that's what's helping, in conjunction with the supplements. If you haven't had a recent blood test for thyroid, ferritin, b vits and oestrogen, then that's a good starting point and may reveal some deficiencies you didn't know you had. The oestrogen alone won't solve the hair shedding if there's additional deficiencies. Hope this helps.

[Sammiejane]

Hi kilted Cupid

My blood test revealed normal everything vit d ferritin iron thyroid etc my hair loss is hormonal

My estrogen levels were 104 and testosterone 0.6 according to menopause this is low and Gp said this is normal can't win but was on Estrogel and suffered thinning scalp hair but then wasn't obsorbing well on 2 pumps so my levels dropped from 195 to 104 I have swapped to Estradot 75 purely because hair loss listed as rare and with Estraderm it was frequency unknown which it what I read for Estrogel although some sites said it causes thinning scalp hair so I'm going to see how patch does although I feel my vagina is dryer on the patch ? But won't know how hairloss will be I hope it stops maybe I need balance of all 3 hormones even though I had hysterectomy x

[KiltedCupid]

Sammiejane - that's a low oestrogen reading. Although tests are not an absolute indication of levels, they are an indicator of low, medium and high levels, and yours is low. FYI, gp's always say satisfactory if it's within their range - this doesn't mean it's satisfactory for you. My go told me a reading of under 50 was satisfactory as it was within post meno range. My levels plummeted on Oestrogel and I'm pretty sure that's what caused hair thinning.

If you have your other test results, it might be worth posting them and other ladies who have expertise on readings can comment, I know there's some on here.

If I were you, I'd keep going with patch for a few months, get tested again and if oestrogen levels have increased you can consider adding other hormones. You're in, some would say, the enviable position of not having to take prog so hold off until you've got your E levels up. With levels as low as yours, I'd imagine that's what's causing the hair loss. There are no patches indicated for hair growth, it's just a matter of finding one you absorb well and makes you feel well.

[Sammiejane]

Thanks kilted Cupid

I'll stick to the patch but already in 3 days have had to increase it to 75mg but why is it the more estrogen I take the more I sweat could this be low progesterone causing sweating ? Or low T

[KiltedCupid]

SammieJane - it could well be a rapid increase in E that's causing the sweats. I've had that happen, particularly when switching from gel to patch. I automatically assumed it was a drop as sweats = low E, but not always, they can and do happen with a rapid increase. I think you've gone from 2 pumps to 75 patch? That patch is higher E than what's approximated for 2 pumps. 2 pumps is around a 50 patch, give or take, so you've essentially added another pump. Stick with your patch and try to stick to the same dose for at least a month unless you start to feel really unwell.  Take stock then and increase or decrease as necessary. Do you know your own personal reaction to high/low levels?

[Sammiejane]

Hi kilted Cupid

What progesterone cream are u using ?

[KiltedCupid]

Hi Sammiejane - I don't use a prog cream anymore as I found the effects built up and made me depressed and spacey. Prog creams on this forum = can & worms. Some are pro and some are anti but a quick search of OTC progesterone cream will reveal that any discussions on such usual end up in Handbags At Dawn scenario with fur flying in all directions.

This is just my opinion, and I'm not medically qualified, but I've been round the HRT block a few times and for more years than I care to remember; GET YOUR OESTROGEN LEVEL STABLE. I cannot emphasise this enough Sammiejane, because if you start adding dribs and drabs of other hormones, you'll end up in a pickle not knowing what's doing what, and may exacerbate your hair shedding as your body is in a spin.

One step at a time. Oestrogen first, it needs to be at least 200 pmol, so that's twice what you are just now and I bet you'll feel so much better when you're there. I think you should drop back to a 50 patch as that's around the equivalent of what you had in gel. Easy and slow and you'll get there.

[JayJay]

Hi KC
Your post to SJ makes a lot of sense and I can relate to the issues, especially getting the oestrogen amount correct.
After three reasonable years on Oestrogel +Uter, I am experiencing hair loss and some other difficult symptoms. 
The past couple of weeks have been very difficult, as I have been feeling unwell on top of this, and therefore finding just everyday things difficult to cope with.
Could you explain what 200 pmol is, relating to gel?
Can you recommend a patch which is 'hair friendly' or do you think the prog is the cause of hair loss?
Interesting post from Hurdity today - she says that oestrogen is the feminine hormone, therefore should not affect hair growth in an adverse manner.  So is it the prog?  I dropped the T when I started sprouting large black ones on my upper lip!
Have had no children, still all intact down there, but have been on OCP most of my life, many different ones as they were very high dose in the early days.
Have also tried the otc prog cream in a pump, and actually I did get on with it quite well. 
My dentist (lovely lady) says my body is used to a high level of hormones.
Feel I am so close to getting this right.
Have a good Saturday night y'all
Jay

[KiltedCupid]

Hi JayJay - sorry you're feeling unwell, I can most definitely relate to that. 200pmol is the blood reading of Oestradiol when the blood was drawn. Our Oestradiol levels differ throughout the day and therefor, it's not possible to be absolutely accurate about levels when they're drawn, however it's an indication of how much circulating oestrogen you have. My understanding is that 200/250 is a good, reasonable level where most meno symptoms would be relieved. That said, some ladies need much higher levels to feel their best ie. 500+ to relieve all symptoms. You're own sweet spot can only be determined by having a blood test fairly regularly until you feel at your best. Many meno specialists prefer to work on symptoms alone.

There is no one type of oestrogen product which is hair friendly, as absorption is really the key. If you find your hair loss coincides with the return of other low E symptoms, that's probably what it is - low E. If it's been 3 years since you used CCP then I expect your body is now used to bio HRT and not the very high synthetic levels of E that CCP gives and your dentist isn't really qualified to give that advice. Have you had a blood test recently? Are you taking Utro conti?