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Author Topic: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT  (Read 29254 times)

Ladybt28

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #210 on: September 04, 2019, 04:45:53 PM »

Sorry if anyone is going to be offended by my rant but I feel extremely (!!!! a million exclamation marks...that's how extremely!) strongly on this. I am in two minds about posting this but my very own personal opinion on the subject for what it's worth and it's probably not helpful to anyone but me, so here goes....
should someone wish to stop or reduce my hrt based on the "risks"  my answer is "without hrt I would be dead by my own hand so if it increases my chances of being dead through breast cancer, then it is a chance I am willing to take! I now have a life thanks to it after 20 years of no life at all, 10 years of which was menopause Armageddon.

I am buoyed by the words of people who "know" like Louise Newsom, Liz Earle, and the cancer doctor (can't remember his name)
but what scares me more than the "research" paper is how quickly NICE have reacted and how quickly we seem to have been thrown back to the time the last discredited study stopped millions of women getting hrt and consigned them to a life of hell....that no man would countenance if it happened to them!  I also agree with orlaa that "combined with the shortages" something stinks...
More and more women have been asking for hrt over the last few years, call me cynical (I am flaming cynical!) but maybe "women having a life" is costing the NHS too much??  Maybe Diane's petition and the new focus on helping menopausal women in the workplace has frightened the powers that be...so the answer is to try and scare us sh**less.  Makes my blood boil in case you hadn't guessed.  Our very own menopausal "project fear" if you like!
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shrosphirelass

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Fairywoods

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #212 on: September 04, 2019, 05:06:22 PM »

I have been reading through this the last couple of days and also follow Dr Newson and Liz Earle. What they say makes sense but why are the medicines authority issuing revised guidelines (linked a couple of posts above)? I just don't get how the authority can be so wrong unless it's to do with shortages or funding or something... I posted on this forum a few times when I tried Hrt earlier this year (Oestrogel/Utro) but the Utro made me zombie tired and depressed so came off it myself as my GP knew little. I tried to go it alone but last 3 months horrendous night sweats and feel like I haven't slept for ever. Finally decided to see a private London doctor who wasn't the expert she marketed herself as and prescribed out of stock patches. Recently I was thinking of going back to GP and the supply issue kicked off and then this scare....
I just don't know what to believe or think anymore not helped by tiredness and the conflicting views.  How are we meant to make decisions when experts disagree??
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Callisto

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #213 on: September 04, 2019, 05:23:55 PM »

What happens to individual choice?

It should not be up to others to decide for a woman, we should be given available information ( conflicting or not) and ultimately be allowed to decide for ourselves, balance our own risks, benefits.

For the women that do not want to take HRT that is fine. For the women who do want to take HRT then that is fine too, no one needs to be hectored by others opinions on either side of the fence - each to their own!


🐾C
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Ladybt28

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #214 on: September 04, 2019, 05:33:30 PM »

I agree Callisto - when you read the forum posts there are always occasions when Doctors don't have a clue about hrt and then spout on about what they will and won't prescribe. A lot of them don't follow the current guidelines and give those who want it what they need. You are spot on, if you want hrt and are comfortable with any risk, it's your choice,  if you are not comfortable and don't want it, it's also your choice but my huge worry about shortages and this study combined is that, it seems whatever we want...it's going to be a problem xx
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bear

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #215 on: September 04, 2019, 09:05:56 PM »

Continuing my own analysis of the IMS comment (in bold) on the study:

The authors have tried to minimise bias in their analyses, but it is important to recognise that observational studies include unquantifiable confounding effects, for which corrections cannot be made, and so as in all studies, there are limitations.

Correct. The authors have tried to minimize bias using the available current tools to achieve that.
Correct: all studies have limitations.

It is extremely important to note that this paper does not inform us of the impact of current recommended MHT prescribing practices on breast cancer risk.

It's quite difficult to quantify the impact of current MHT prescribing practices on BC risk, for the obvious fact that BC takes time to develop and the ‘current recommended MHT prescribing practices' are only going to show (or not) increased BC risks over time.

With an average use of 10 years of MHT in current users at diagnosis, and 7 years in past users, much of the exposure to MHT preceded the first publication of the Women's Health Initiative study, after which prescribing practices changed substantially. Consequently, virtually all of the included information pertains to MHT formulations and doses known to have adverse breast effects that are no longer recommended. Specifically, the use of the progestogens medroxyprogesterone acetate and norethisterone (norethindrone) is now discouraged because of their known adverse effects, but these account for nearly all of the data for combined estrogen-progestogen therapy included in the paper.

I had no idea norethisterone is no longer recommended and now discouraged. (!)

Additionally, the majority of cases were women who took oral estrogen, which results in high blood levels of the hormone estrone,  whereas transdermal therapy does not (2). Estrone is not only the main estrogen produced by postmenopausal women, but levels are higher in overweight/obese women, such that estrone may be a key factor linking obesity with breast cancer.

I'd like to see references for these affirmations.

Estrone is the main oestrogen produced by postmenopausal women, but this is a normal shift in the metabolism of oestrogens, also seen during pregnancy, when estriol rises. Nature is wise, older women with lots of cell genetic mutations (including oocytes) should not have increaed risks of cell multiplication by mitogenic estradiol, thus estrone and not estradiol, which main function lies in reproduction, takes over.

Estrone is reversibly converted to estradiol through the action of 17β-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase enzyme in peripheral tissues, so it's not easy to separate the potential roles of estrone and estradiol in BC. https://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/79/13_Supplement/590.short

‘A number of known breast cancer risk factors have been proposed to influence risk via effects on estrogens. Obesity, defined as BMI> 30 kg/m2, raises the risk of postmenopausal breast cancer, and this has been attributed to the higher circulating levels of estrogens synthesized in the adipose tissue of obese women. At the same time, an inverse association between obesity and SHBG blood levels has been reported, which in turn, contributes to higher concentrations of free estradiol (bioavailable fraction) in the circulation.
The magnitude of the associations of estrogens with a number of breast cancer risk factors including obesity, reproductive, demographic, and life style factors has been investigated by the Endogenous Hormones and Breast Cancer Collaborative Group in several studies. In a pooled analysis of eight prospective studies in postmenopausal women, adjusting data for free estradiol concentrations attenuated breast cancer risk by 17% for each 5 kg/m2 increase in BMI, resulting in a loss of statistical significance for the association between BMI and breast cancer risk [104]. In another cross-sectional analysis of 13 prospective studies by the same group, estrogen and androgen levels were positively associated with obesity, smoking (15+ cigarettes daily) and alcohol consumption (20+g alcohol daily), and inversely linked with age. By contrast, SHBG concentrations were greater in older women and lower in obese women and those consuming alcohol [105].'

‘The association between circulating endogenous estrogens and breast cancer risk in postmenopausal women has been conclusively established, and compelling evidence exists to support a causal relationship. Epidemiological studies have consistently shown a 2–3 fold increase in breast cancer risk in women with elevated blood estradiol levels. On the other hand, findings from estrogen metabolite investigations are mixed. This inconsistency in estrogen metabolite results may be due to methodological differences in participant characteristics, study design and follow-up length (for some studies insufficient), number of cases (some studies under-powered), and high inter-individual variation in serum and urinary concentrations of estrogen metabolites, or limitations associated with estrogen metabolite measurement. Of particular note are differences in assay methodologies. Until recently, the leading methodology for measurement of estrogen metabolites was ELISA, a method that has limited specificity and sensitivity. This is of particular importance for analysis of samples from postmenopausal women, whose levels are extremely low. Recently, some groups have used liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry (LC–MS/MS), which has much higher sensitivity and specificity.'

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4505810/#R14

Estrone can exert a role in BC only after being metabolised to estradiol inside breast cancer cells.

'Estrogens play a pivotal role in the development and proliferation of hormone-dependent breast cancer. Apart from free estrogens, which can directly activate the estrogen receptor (ER) of tumor cells, sulfo-conjugated steroids, which maintain high plasma concentrations even after menopause, first have to be imported into tumor cells by carrier-mediated uptake and then can be cleaved by the steroid sulfatase to finally activate ERs and cell proliferation' https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2018.00941/full

From what I have understood, estrone levels are higher in postmenopausal women, independently of their obesity status. Obesity can further elevate estrone levels (but also estradiol levels), particularly in the peripheral tissues via fat cell metabolism. Thus, any impact of estrone in BC would mean the same for estradiol (endogenous or from HRT).

I'm not aware of any robust studies on BC and estrone, except for the ones that also consider estradiol as a factor.

BeaR.

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CLKD

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #216 on: September 04, 2019, 09:13:54 PM »

Interesting subject. I suggest that you all continue as you are.  When I had breast treatment in the 1990s: non-sinister lump found, surgery, changes in the lump margins at histology, bone scan and precautionary radiation for 4 weeks and regular mammos ....... still here!  Fortunately I have not required HRT and stopped the 'tamoxifen' as it nearly killed me  :-\.  It was supposed to be taken to reduce a recurrence but a friend died of womb cancer due to taking it for years.  Go figure.

What GPs need to do is to listen to women.  Many commit suicide due to menopause symptoms ............ there are risks, even getting out of bed is a risk!!

Maybe decide why you take it.  Make a list of how you felt prior and how it has helped.  GPs can refuse to prescribe, sadly.  Quality of Life!  ;)

I was anorexic from age 3, diagnosed at age 5.  At my lowest, in 1971, I went down to slightly over 5st.  I ate enough to remain upright.  Never obese.  But I grew a lump which had cancerous changes within it.  Never smoked. Don't drink.  Exercised well until 5 years ago .........

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jaycee

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #217 on: September 04, 2019, 10:54:51 PM »

I wonder what side effects they are referring to with norethisterone, it is really bad to take for some people,i had awful diarrhea and lost loads of hair on it within 4 weeks of taking it
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Katy60

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #218 on: September 05, 2019, 06:52:02 AM »

interesting comments by Kirsty Lang in mirror today
katy
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shrosphirelass

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #220 on: September 05, 2019, 10:31:40 AM »

"With an average use of 10 years of MHT in current users at diagnosis, and 7 years in past users, much of the exposure to MHT preceded the first publication of the Women's Health Initiative study, after which prescribing practices changed substantially. Consequently, virtually all of the included information pertains to MHT formulations and doses known to have adverse breast effects that are no longer recommended. Specifically, the use of the progestogens medroxyprogesterone acetate and norethisterone (norethindrone) is now discouraged because of their known adverse effects, but these account for nearly all of the data for combined estrogen-progestogen therapy included in the paper.

I had no idea norethisterone is no longer recommended and now discouraged. (!)"


Anyone who is using evorel sequi or evorel conti will be using norethisterone. This treatment was recommended to me at a menopause clinic. I want to know what adverse effects are being referred to and whether I should consider other options when any become available.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2019, 12:14:15 PM by shrosphirelass »
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Jari

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #221 on: September 05, 2019, 11:36:19 AM »

Butterfly22, just a little update as we were chatting about bone health. I just had my results. Apparently normal for my age. Consultant says normal range for hip and borderline osteopenia for spine.
No medication needed. I asked if they prescribe hrt normally and that was a no. They prescribe different medication and I was told I don't need it, but I must manage my dietary/lifestyle choices and do weight bearing exercise. Walking was recommended as it's weight bearing for spine.
They would have prescribed me calcium and vit d if I was low but my blood test showed good levels. I will have another scan in 2-3 years.  X
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CLKD

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #222 on: September 05, 2019, 12:35:43 PM »

So does anyone actually understand what we are being told?  How GPs are likely to react? 
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Ladybt28

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #223 on: September 05, 2019, 12:45:20 PM »

They won't just react, they will over-react - without adding one once of common sense!  ;D I'd stake my house on it from the one's I met and the stuff they already get up to which gets posted on here! Its well known here how I just love them! :-X

I do CKLD - its what you said "quality of life", and what Kirsty Lang said "what's the point of having a life if you are miserable" an it should be about "choice".  xx
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Katy60

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Re: Link to Guardian article this morning re increased breast cancer risk on HRT
« Reply #224 on: September 05, 2019, 03:31:26 PM »

Just received letter from GP telling me to go urgently for mammogram!!
I have made appointment 9am next Monday to see GP!

I have read the Lancet paper (research behind the headlines).......she will have read the daily mail ! Hopefully it is not that ridiculous.

Lots of brilliant people have tried to explain the reality of the risks  in response to the alarmist headlines in the press and tried to add much needed perspective.

KatyX
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