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[Mustard1]

Dear All,  I am now very confused having just read Dr Marion Cluck's book on Hormones and also Dr Lee's.  Both these Doctor's  state that the problem is not enough natural progesterone i.e. not the synthetic but everything I have seen and my own regime is concentrating far more on Oestrogen.  I am currently on 1 1/2 pumps oestrogel plus Everol Conti 50 patch.  I am post menopause.  My anxiety over sleep is getting worse every day, I now carry it around with me and am stopping doing things as I cope with the anxiety about sleeping the night before.  I have never experienced anxiety in my life until now.  What am I misunderstanding or are there actually 2 separate medical trains of thought on this? 

[racjen]

There are indeed two separate trains of thought about this (there would be wouldn't there - can't ever be simple). John Lee's views about oestrogen dominance are very much at odds with the mainstream view that oestrogen is, on the whole, the helpful hormone and progesterone the bad guy. Most conventional doctors don't give this view the time of day and will happily prescribe oestrogen only to women with no uterus. I'm not really sure myself - I know that I need a high level of oestrogen to banish depression, but I suspect I do also need some progesterone to feel OK, just haven't found the right type and balance. Diane Danzebrink has a lot of experience with this particular issue - google her, she's very knowledgable and a lovely lady, you can phone her for advice.

[Hurdity]

Hi Mustard1 - The oestrogen dominance idea has been debunked and doesn't actually stand up to medical trials. If progesterone was the hormone that was needed to feel good, then research would demonstrate this!  John Lee's oestrogen dominance theory was invented to sell progesterone cream so I read somewhere! If it stood up to scrutiny, how is it that most women feel at their best throughout their fertile life in the middle of their menstrual cycle when oestrogen is at its highest and progesterone at its lowest? During peri-menopause less progesterone is produced due to anovulatory cycles and this can lead to thickening of the womb and irregular and heavy bleeding, which is why extra progesterone may be needed at  this time.

In your case you are taking a synthetic progestogen continuously (the Evorel conti) which may well be contributing to or even giving you anxiety. That progestogen is notorious for causing pms symptoms in some women. Have you thought of taking hRT cyclically to have a withdrawal bleed? That is the only way to determine whether the progestogen is causing you problems. It's not advisable if you've had endometriosis but otherwise if you can stand to have a bleed you may well reap the benefit of oestrogen only.

Progesterone (the "natural stuff as in Utrogestan) in the doses needed to protect the womb, has a pronounced sedative effect which can lead to fatigue, headaches and ultimately depression. Some women with sleep problems, find the sedative effect of low doses of progesterone helpful - but this is not because it "balances" oestrogen in its therapeutic effect, but just that it acts in its own right at low doses as a sedative.

Hurdity x

[Mustard1]

Ladies, Once again thank you very much.  I was really confused after reading their books.  I will get an appointment with my Meno Doctor with a view to change to Utrogestan to see if that helps.  I was confused.com with these books but once again this web site provides good sound advice.  I am about to start CBD oil (from Megs Menopause Blog) to see if that helps at all.  My other symptoms (even ones I didn;t know where menopause) are all gone except the awful irrational anxiety.

[dangermouse]

There is no ideal hormone, it's about balancing your own hormonal imbalances.

I remember Marion Gluck prescribing me oestrogen many years ago (although my response showed us it wasn't what I needed) so as far as I know she prescribes whatever's it is you need. Perhaps her book is more for perimenopause?

Progesterone only may be needed in peri if you have particularly high oestrogen levels, as they put you at risk of oestrogen driven cancers (particularly those with the BRCA genes) and oestrogen may be needed for those with very low levels as they have a higher risk of heart disease.

As the others said, there is a progesterone only school of thought for post meno too (John Lee, Ray Peat etc.) which many women thrive on but I'm not there yet to have a view.

[Kathleen]

Hello Mustard1.

I also recall reading  that progesterone was the most beneficial hormone. It was in an article written by the author Jeanette Winterson about her menopause experiences. She consulted a specialist privately and said she felt sorry for other women whose only option was standard treatment via their GPs. ie patches!

I also looked into buying CBD oil from the Meg's Menopause site but Google tells me that the site is not secure so my purchase can't go through. One more frustration to deal with unfortunately.

I hope you have a successful appointment with your meno doctor and please keep us updated.

Take care.

K.

[Mustard1]

HI Ladies,  Thank you all.  I would do anything to get rid of the sleep anxiety so all my reading is confusing me.  Your responses on this website really do help.  Thank God for this website. 

[BlueButterfly]

So my opinion on the oestrogen dominance stance...
From what I've been reading...when perimenopause first starts, progesterone starts to go down first. It's more gradual vs oestrogen that is more like a roller coaster ride up and down and all over the place before it finally falls. So sometimes you are swinging into the oestrogen dominance state and sometimes your oestrogen drops low enough to be in a good balance with the progesterone.  That's why the peri stage can be such a challenge to find the right balance until everything has settled down and stopped shifting.

I could be wrong but that's what I'm getting out of all my reading on everything.

[JacksJacks2]

Might be good to have your Testosterone levels checked .... The hormone really plays a part in our well-being and energy levels.

[Nikkisyard]

I honestly think its about finding the right personal balance.

I'm not even sure the 'tests' available to us will give the true picture of what is 'right' for us... its a fine and delicate balance because we are all different - and the tests along with the 'recommended ranges' are, I believe, outdated.

During my late phase peri-meno (because it took me a while to understand what the h*ll was happening) I believed fully that I was Oestrogen dominant (though no one had explained my test results, or anything, to me) - I went on physical changes and advice from an Oesrogen Dominance FB group - so I began cutting out foods that would promote Oestrogen and I bought a natural progesterone cream.... this just made things worse for me.  What Bluebutterfly makes perfect sense as there was obviously no one 'cure'. I proceeded to stumble ungracefully and miserably into post menopause and lost all faith....

Numerous blood test results (because I cant afford the private/'saliva' methods) and years of late night googling later... I have learned more about me, my changing body and the woefully inadequate way the medical profession deals with menopause... and I have learned about many different trains of though on what is aparently BEST for us.

For me, once I finally took the plunge and started HRT, with eyes and ears wide open and keeping a critical view, I have learned that my body needs the Oestrogen. Im learning what the rest does (and I totally feel its about individual balance) and I strongly feel, despite "test results" and medical opinion, I need some Testosterone. No one (so far) will prescribe that for me.
BUT this is just me.

So I guess what I am saying it... take it all with a pinch of salt... read more.. but dont believe all you read (research the authors).. and DONT mess about too much with trying out things as it can make life miserable. Believe me.

I guess the key is to find a GP, Gynae or Clinic that is OPEN to the more recent ways of thinking... I am still looking for that - and I am still looking for my HRT balance...

 

[Nikkisyard]

Oh and.... for me... Evorel Conti changed my mood )(or the worse), made my hair fall and had me bloat... its synthetic Prog. For me... BHRT is the way forward.

Good luck xx

[Mustard1]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. Where would we be without this website. Xx

[BlueButterfly]

it's really such a balancing game with the hormones. Too little or too much oestrogen causes symptoms...same with progesterone. But I think sometimes it's the ratio between the 2 causes the problem. Both can be in a 'normal' range but so out of balance. (The can also both be low but balanced quite well that you don't have symptoms) And with peri sending hormones all over the place that balance is very hard to get right. And that ratio/balance really depends on the individual. 2 can have the same levels of hormones but only one is experiencing symptoms....they should be treated! But sadly, this isn't often the case and we suffer because our levels are 'fine' and 'normal'. 

I know the oestrogen dominance thing is still quite common. I seem to be in that state at the moment. Have read that the problem with progesterone cream is that it builds up in the body over time because it is absorbed in the fatty tissue...so when you start it's great but over time you end up in a progesterone dominant state and a whole rush of symptoms come back. And then you are trying to play catch up with the oestrogen to get that balance back.

[EnglishRose]

Ladies, Once again thank you very much.  I was really confused after reading their books.  I will get an appointment with my Meno Doctor with a view to change to Utrogestan to see if that helps.  I was confused.com with these books but once again this web site provides good sound advice.  I am about to start CBD oil (from Megs Menopause Blog) to see if that helps at all.  My other symptoms (even ones I didn;t know where menopause) are all gone except the awful irrational anxiety.

Mustard
Maybe you have now developed a phobia regardless of hormones
There are hundreds and thousands of people of all ages male and female who develop a phobia
It's likely the anxiety started during your meno but has now become a trained anxiety, in short you have trained your subconscious mind to fear sleep.
I would not be looking for a hormonal cure for a specific fear if you had a general sense of anxiety sure, but a very specific fear or phobia needs a different approach.