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[EnglishRose]

I had some private blood tests done which took into consideration any existing HRT as I'm using progesterone pessaries.

FHS 70.1
17-BETA OESTRADIOL  <18.4
PROGESTERONE 20.3

Please find the results of your HRT check.
We note that you are taking this test to investigate symptoms and that you are taking 500mg progesterone per day.
Your follicle stimulating hormone and oestradiol are  at a level consistent with the menopause. It could be that your cycle is now 2 weeks long as a result of being peri-menopausal. Your progesterone is at a level consistent with replacement therapy.

________________________________________

So I am deficient oestrogen? Does that mean I don't have any at all? What symptoms would I be feeling?
I'm sleeping a lot but nothing else is major it's more or less as I d been since I started with peri aged 40 except memory is poor the last few moths

[Hurdity]

Hi rosenglish - sorry I can't remember your history and where you are in menopause, and why you are taking so much progesterone every day. That is a huge amount!  Not quite so bad if it's Cyclogest but still too high for every day. High doses of progesterone suppress ovulation with high doses of oestrogen, but those oestrogen levels really are unbelievably low - although one blood test doesn't give the whole picture and also depends where in your cycle it was taken. I'm not quite sure how your cycle/ovulation would be affected just by taking very high progesterone. Also I don't know how old you are now but I would suggest you need to get some oestrogen asap especially if you are under 50. No wonder you are sleeping a lot - with that amount. Who on earth suggested you should take this - I can't believe a UK gynae would recommend this ! The only indication could be for very heavy bleeding and if you did not want to take synthetic progestogens.

If you have consistently low oestrogen you might expect to get hot flushes and sweats and other effects like low energy, low mood, joint aches etc. However very high doses of progesterone (at pharmaceutical doses - higher than needed for endometrial protection ie womb lining) can also  alleviate hot flushes so the problem is you could be preventing the symptoms which would alert your body to oestrogen deficiency. Obviously no-one can say for sure what's going on but just looking at your results in relation to my understand of how it all works (which is a bit hit and miss at  the moment!).

Hope this doesn't sound to garbled - just thinking aloud again!

Hurdity x

[EnglishRose]

Well, it is Cyclogest. So it's natural  as it can be.

When peri first hit I bought into the whole “oestrogen dominance” hype which is still all over the net. With it being the hormone that has a stimulating effect causing rage anxiety insomnia cancer causing hormone ...etc... Progesterone is known even in the NHS as “nature's Valium” so it made sense to take high doses to push oestrogen down. I think I've done that!

But I agree it's not good to have no oestrogen so now I have ordered some bio identical estrogen called ESTRIOL-CARE with Natural Estriol (2 oz) 60ml

I'm fearful of the whole HRT route under the doctors care.. I haven't read many happy endings they seem to either create new symptoms or make matters worse or swap one set of symptoms for others.
You're right. It's a lot I know but is it causing me life or health threatening issues?

I used to buy progesterone cream but it got expensive so took the tube of Natro to my female doctors explained my reasons for using it and asked for Cyclogest to lose the £200 a month I was spending on the Natpro.
She replied “well,I see no reason why not,  it's only a hormone”

Need a say more why I don't trust doctors?

Last time I had my hormones tested I would be about 43 44 and they came back normal. Now I'm 49 and this is the first official test to show I'm meno or reaching meno.

[EnglishRose]

Hi rosenglish - sorry I can't remember your history and where you are in menopause, and why you are taking so much progesterone every day. That is a huge amount!  Not quite so bad if it's Cyclogest but still too high for every day. High doses of progesterone suppress ovulation with high doses of oestrogen, but those oestrogen levels really are unbelievably low - although one blood test doesn't give the whole picture and also depends where in your cycle it was taken. I'm not quite sure how your cycle/ovulation would be affected just by taking very high progesterone. Also I don't know how old you are now but I would suggest you need to get some oestrogen asap especially if you are under 50. No wonder you are sleeping a lot - with that amount. Who on earth suggested you should take this - I can't believe a UK gynae would recommend this ! The only indication could be for very heavy bleeding and if you did not want to take synthetic progestogens.

If you have consistently low oestrogen you might expect to get hot flushes and sweats and other effects like low energy, low mood, joint aches etc. However very high doses of progesterone (at pharmaceutical doses - higher than needed for endometrial protection ie womb lining) can also  alleviate hot flushes so the problem is you could be preventing the symptoms which would alert your body to oestrogen deficiency. Obviously no-one can say for sure what's going on but just looking at your results in relation to my understand of how it all works (which is a bit hit and miss at  the moment!).

Hope this doesn't sound to garbled - just thinking aloud again!

Hurdity x

I'm always sick. Always flu like aches, headaches, weak, fatigued, post nasal drip, sinus, colds etc... but I was before progesterone too. I have a weak immune system.
It's a maze! I've read low oestrogen affects the immune system which is why women tend to get colds around their periods ...
so I'll try adding some oestrogen and see how I go.

[dangermouse]

Are you still sugar-free? I remember from you're other posts that you thought things had gone downhill since you changed your diet.

[EnglishRose]

Are you still sugar-free? I remember from you're other posts that you thought things had gone downhill since you changed your diet.

I am yes. Juicing veg and eating cleaner. ...can't say I have noticed any difference

[Hurdity]

Well, it is Cyclogest. So it's natural  as it can be.

When peri first hit I bought into the whole “oestrogen dominance” hype which is still all over the net. With it being the hormone that has a stimulating effect causing rage anxiety insomnia cancer causing hormone ...etc... Progesterone is known even in the NHS as “nature's Valium” so it made sense to take high doses to push oestrogen down. I think I've done that!

But I agree it's not good to have no oestrogen so now I have ordered some bio identical estrogen called ESTRIOL-CARE with Natural Estriol (2 oz) 60ml

I'm fearful of the whole HRT route under the doctors care.. I haven't read many happy endings they seem to either create new symptoms or make matters worse or swap one set of symptoms for others.
You're right. It's a lot I know but is it causing me life or health threatening issues?

I used to buy progesterone cream but it got expensive so took the tube of Natro to my female doctors explained my reasons for using it and asked for Cyclogest to lose the £200 a month I was spending on the Natpro.
She replied “well,I see no reason why not,  it's only a hormone”

Need a say more why I don't trust doctors?

Last time I had my hormones tested I would be about 43 44 and they came back normal. Now I'm 49 and this is the first official test to show I'm meno or reaching meno.

Sorry to hear about your doc! Just to make a couple of points - progesterone does not push oestrogen down - it is the menopause that is doing that most likely, so you really do need to replace it. Secondly estriol cream won't do anything for your estradiol levels and especially not OTC estriol! It is estradiol you need and not in cream form. If you want to do it the natural way then try either gel or patches. I am totally with you on that as I have always doen HRT the most natural way ie bio-identical hormones - estradiol and progesterone (on NHS) and nil-by-mouth.  Estriol will not protect your heart and bones which is what you need if you are having an early menopause and have been without oestrogen for some time.

Do go along to a doc that knows what they are talking about. Can you find one in the practice that is sympathetic to women in menopause and understands HRT? If not then it is your right to ask for a referral to a menopause clinic if there is one nearby or even at a distance if there isn't and the docs are ignorant of it....

The whole oestrogen dominance thing is a red herring to be honest - it was invented to sell progesterone cream. If you are not ovulating you just don't need progesterone in those large amounts - but you do need it to protect your uterus if taking oestrogen.

There is also Utrogestan it is as "natural" as Cyclogest ie progesterone - which is licensed for HRT and which can also be used vaginally. I started off (my HRT) with Cyclogest - and the doc prescribed 400 mg to be taken cyclically for 11 days per month, along with 50 mcg oestrogen patches. Even so that level of progesterone was far too high.

If you want to continue with Cycligest I would get some proper oestrogen (estradiol) and then use the progesterone cyclically (if you are still peri-menopause) - which will give a withdrawal bleed, or continuously at a lower dose which will stop the bleeding.

Hope this helps and let us know what you decide

Hurdity x

[dangermouse]

I think the ‘oestrogen dominance' terminology comes from the pill where some are termed oestrogen-dominant and the others progesterone-dominant, where you would suit the one that rebalances your own natural dominance.

25 years ago I was seen by an endocrinologist who said I needed to be on an oestrogen-dominant pill (Brevinor) to combat my naturally high progesterone levels at the time. I now have the opposite issue!

Progesterone levels start falling from mid 30s very gradually but oestrogen stays high and can start surging to much higher levels than when younger. Oestrogen may not fall to the same level as progesterone for up to 4 years after periods stop. It's the ratio between the two hormones that causes all the volatility and symptoms. I guess that's why oestrogen dominance is used to describe this gap?

The progesterone creams help a lot of women come through this tricky time but sometimes the dosage needs to be raised as the gap becomes wider.

It could also be to do with the fall in your sugar levels though (through your new diet) and I know you had a bad reaction to the probiotics so all this can throw our liver out and amplify our hormone imbalances.

Not sure about the low dose oestrogen you've ordered but maybe try it now you've bought it and if nothing improves you could try the stronger HRT. It is tricky when you make a lot of changes at once though to know what's helping and what's causing issues.

[EnglishRose]

I think the ‘oestrogen dominance' terminology comes from the pill where some are termed oestrogen-dominant and the others progesterone-dominant, where you would suit the one that rebalances your own natural dominance.

25 years ago I was seen by an endocrinologist who said I needed to be on an oestrogen-dominant pill (Brevinor) to combat my naturally high progesterone levels at the time. I now have the opposite issue!

Progesterone levels start falling from mid 30s very gradually but oestrogen stays high and can start surging to much higher levels than when younger. Oestrogen may not fall to the same level as progesterone for up to 4 years after periods stop. It's the ratio between the two hormones that causes all the volatility and symptoms. I guess that's why oestrogen dominance is used to describe this gap?

The progesterone creams help a lot of women come through this tricky time but sometimes the dosage needs to be raised as the gap becomes wider.

It could also be to do with the fall in your sugar levels though (through your new diet) and I know you had a bad reaction to the probiotics so all this can throw our liver out and amplify our hormone imbalances.

Not sure about the low dose oestrogen you've ordered but maybe try it now you've bought it and if nothing improves you could try the stronger HRT. It is tricky when you make a lot of changes at once though to know what's helping and what's causing issues.

Thank you. That made a great deal of sense. I am back to sanity since I tried the probiotics again 3 days ago. So I'm not sure why it's effecting me in such a phycological way but I've never experienced that before these recent attempts to take the, ..

I won't be trying again for a while. I think the first attempt created such a mess and stirred up Candida in my gut that it needs time to go dormant again perhaps, like it's on high alert and is in defence mode still.
It's a living bacteria and has to survive like all living things.

I'm going to have a consultation with Eric Bakker a nutritionist who spent years suffering with systemic candida and was treat by the medical authorities like he was a hypochondriac. He had to do lot of research to recover himself. I feel who ever treats or advises me needs to have personal experience of it.
For me, it effects me by destroying my immune system and after a decade and now test results that confirm what I've always suspected I'm keen to finally treat it under the supervision of a nutritionist.

[dangermouse]

Apparently, if you starve the Candida through no sugar diets, the Candida goes on a hunt for more food so spreads to other areas of the gut. I suspect SIBO is connected.

Feeding it a tonne of sugar is also not a good idea though so maybe something more balanced for now might make it calm down.

The probiotics will also kill some of it through the change in microbioma so it may all just be too much all at once.

I'd always start with diet and get that to a) something you can live on for life and not feel over restricted b) the right ratio of natural fibre so not constipated. This may take a while to settle. Then you can look into supplements and may be try one at a time - if you still need them.

There are so many anti-Candida and hormone diets/theories so all you can do is try one thing at a time!