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[EnglishRose]

I am aware that writing a long winded post will put people off reading it, so I will try and keep to bullet points.

Never had PMS till I was 40

Then I had PMS or maybe it was perimenopause. Had the usual suspects in terms of symptoms some months worse than others. Emotional anxiety, rage, depression, blood clots, heavy periods, night sweats, day sweats, etc etc ...

When peri him me it hit me HARD, I did not understand what was happening so went to an emergency doctor at weekends with my Parents in a state and they put me on ADs and beta blockers. ( no longer on beta blockers) still taking 50mg of Dosulpine at nights as it is good for sleep.

After 2 years I noticed my symptoms had a cycle to them, always 2 weeks before my period and they came regardless of the AD I was taking. I realised then they were hormone related.

I bought into the whole idea of "Oestrogen dominance" found on articles on the internet and ended up asking for Cyclogest  (natural progesterone pessaries) Because progesterone is known as "Nature's Valium" were as Oestrogen is the one that keeps you awake and angry and anxious, Oestrogen is an excitatory hormone were as progesterone is the calming hormone so it made logical sense to use Progesterone to try keep the PMS symptoms under control.

I have been using 500mg daily for years.

I stopped eating all sugars 6 weeks ago and then started taking probiotics to improve my immune health. I am always sick with sinus and flu symptoms since I turned 40, I can spend weeks at a time in bed sick. I have had bloods tested nothing shows as being "off" and I have always suspected systemic candida which is a nutritional condition that the NHS won't even acknowledge much less treat so I don't go to the doctors anymore. I just plod on.

About 3 weeks ago and following a month of taking powerful probiotics, I crashed and I had to stop them as I had a herx reaction or more commonly known as "die off"  were too many toxins were released into my bloodstream from the probiotics crowding out the candida bacteria in my body and causing what is known as a "Healing crisis"
I have had it before but not as intense as this. I stopped taking them 3 weeks ago and I am still not "right"

Since then I have been physically sick (Flu symptoms) and mentally suffering, good days, bad days, think I am getting better then I crash again and end up in bed. I ca live with the physical symptoms, as I have been living with them for 10 years on and off but the mental/emotional ones are new and terrifying me.
Waves of anxiety or depression and these flat moods when I am emotionally disconnected to my surroundings, unable to watch TV and enjoy it.... I can feel it come over me like a blanket of gloom.
During one of those "waves" I worry I might not escape it and be stuck like that for months years or for ever.... I think I would rather be dead without wanting to sound dramatic.

Last night I had an "attack" which I have had a few times since I got sick ...starts with the flat mood.....then anxiety follows for 3/4 hour....then I feel hot then cold then sleepy and want to fall asleep, then finally everything starts to look weird....colours are vivid and everything looks almost artificial. It's not quite "derealisation" but its a variation of that.

I ****think**** I am getting better as when I was first sick, I felt drugged up and anxious and so very sleepy all the time... and the derealisation was stronger... but its funny how we forget the past and get wrapped up in the "here and now" I think I am recovering but now and again, I get knocked back and it upsets me because I feel like I am not making progress. ..

The whole episode lasted 3 hours last night and even when it passes it stays with me because I am depressed it happens and worry when it will happen again.

I am not sure if these new anxiety depression and derealization periods are a result of the probiotics and the toxins my body is still trying to clear out.

OR
The probiotics have stirred my hormones up. There is a link between the gut and our brain and hormones and I have just upset my gut bacteria by taking strong probiotics.
 
OR coincidentally these symptoms have arrived because I am reaching menopause.

I have hired a nutritionist and am having a stool test for my gut immunity and candida too. awaiting the results.

Due to the progesterone I do not have periods anymore just spotting here and there. I am still having periods because I get the physical and emotional symptoms and then i bleed for 2 days but very very light.

I work from home, spend a LOT of time alone,  I don't have female friends (Never have really) and my partner is exhausted from his demanding job so he's tired and to be honest he cannot truly understand...

I just want my mind back. To feel happy or rather to feel at ease..... normal...

My legs ache, my head aches, I have tinnitus, I feel tired, I can sleep 10 to 12 hours a night, I feel weak, no energy and then I have the waves of anxiety depression and derealization some days I don't get much of any then I get a bad day.... its these I cannot take.. they terrify me.

I know its a LOT of information. I have been spending hours scouring the net looking for a story I can relate to...

[Dancinggirl]

Hi and welcome to MM roseenglish

Your post makes interesting reading.  I had a premature menopause (started mid 30s) so used HRT for 25 years on and off - I am now 62 and now only use local oestrogen for urogenital atrophy. Which progesterone type are you using and is this prescribed by your GP?   There are many that find progesterone is helpful through the peri menopause stage, when ovulation becomes erratic so less progesterone is produced resulting in erratic bleeding, but ultimately it is oestrogen deficiency that causes so many of the menopause symptoms, including low mood, anxiety etc.
 
I personally don't believe that oestrogen will make you aggressive, angry or anxious but in my experience it helps to lift mood, improves energy and relieves the flushes, night sweats, aching joints etc that are so typical for the menopause. Oestrogen will usually give you your ‘quality or life' back. Many women find progesterone is a big problem as it can dampen mood and give PMT type symptoms.  The bio identical progesterone, Utrogeston, that is getting very poplar as part of a HRT regime, made me feel very sedated and almost 'high'! WE are all different so the type of hormones we need will vary.

Digestive and sinus issues can also emerge when the menopause hits and oestrogen levels drop - I suspect you must be getting deeper into peri menopause so may now be needing some oestrogen to balance your body better.   Oestrogen supports the muscles and skin (the digestive system is muscle and skin) and as oestrogen declines at menopause then muscles loose strength and skin becomes dry and fragile.  Mucus membranes will dry out with oestrogen deficiency and this will give sinus problems.
So much of what you are describing will be related to oestrogen deficiency.

It can be good to use probiotics and herbal remedies but these do need to be used with caution - just because they are natural does not mean they are totally safe. Since I stopped HRT 2 years ago my digestive system has been a big issue and for me eating very small nutritious meals at regular intervals throughout the day seems to help enormously. No caffeine, fruit juices or alcohol that will aggravate my gut. I do take digestive enzymes occasionally when eating food that are difficult to digest e.g. beans and greens.
You don't mention what exercise you do - I find lots of brisk walking really helpful for everything. I also practise Mindfulness which has been godsend.

Can I suggest you read this really good article which explains the peri menopause phase really well, ‘Perils of Peri Menopause'  as I think you will find it helpful:
 https://www.menopausematters.co.uk/magazine/articles-mainly.php#perils

There is so much useful information on this site - do read up all the factual stuff to get really clued up and get back to us with questions.  DG x

[EnglishRose]

Hello

Thank you for replying. I do not to ANY exercise other than walk my dog if I am feeling physically up to it.

I have wondered if using 500mg of Progesterone now I am approaching 50 is causing issues.

The problem with self diagnosing, self researching is often bad, I have a mistrust of doctors I am afraid,  but if this continues I need to try some Oestrogen. My life these last 2.5 weeks is just awful in my PJs most days.

I use a brand called Cyclogest which is a natural progesterone. Not synthetic. I melt the pessaries in my bra (lol) then rub the melted stuff onto my skin.  When I asked my younger lady doctor for it and my reasons why I wanted it she replied:
"Well, it's only a hormone! So I don't see any problems with letting you try that"
I remember thinking how I wondered how she would feel about "Only a hormone" if or when she hits meno herself.

Right now I feel groggy, sleepy with a hangover headache and weepy and down. I feel defeated.

I have just stopped my last period 4 days ago but I already feel like I am due again, I feel like I am having 2 periods a month... and with the previous symptoms I was fed up but these new ones... I cannot go on like this so I will end up at the doctors if it continues.

It is interesting you say progesterone makes you feel "high" - Yes that's how I would describe my worst symptom, like I am on a mild dose of LSD....lights too bright, noise too loud, colours too vivid.... sometimes feel like I am in a dream almost.

I will read the link you supplied ... many thanks

[Dancinggirl]

I think a combined HRT which includes oestrogen might help you - Femoston 1/10 can be a good one to try to start with but it's trial and error before you find the right HRT for you. DG x

[CLKD]

HORMONES   

Crashing fatigue is common in peri-menopause.  As are gut problems.

It is very unlikely that probiotics will cause the symptoms you describe.  Did you take tablets or in liquid form?  I found that Actimel useful for easing slow bowel transit, if I can't pass a motion and get that full feeling, the probiotic eases it.  Thought that was imagination but a few years ago, when I didn't have access to Actimel my bowel slowed up completely and made me feel quite stuffed and ill 

I thought that the hormones you describe operate oppositely [is that word] in that oestrogen is the calming hormone.  Whatever.  As oestrogen levels drop the body may become dry: inside and out; skin, deep in the ears, nostrils, eyes, vagina  - we have threads on that one aplenty!  Also, as levels drop the muscles may become lax = aches and pains which can be treated with an over-the-counter pain relief.

Some ladies find that keeping a mood/food/symptom diary useful especially if they have busy lives.   Browse round. Make notes.

[CLKD]

Candida is NOT a bacteria.   It is a natural yeast on the body which thrives on sugars.  [think of brewing yeast which has to be kept alive?]

Candidiasis (yeast infection)

"What is candidiasis?
Candida is a type of yeast, or fungus, and candidiasis is a yeast infection.

"There are more than 20 types of Candida and they can live on our bodies causing no problems at all. However, in warm, moist conditions the fungi can multiply and cause infections. These can range from the harmless but irritating, think vaginal thrush or nappy rash, to infections that spread through the entire body, which for those with weakened immune systems can be life threatening.

"Examples of candidiasis

Vaginal thrush

"It is common for women to get vaginal thrush at some time in their life. This is often referred to as vaginal candidiasis.

"Adults can also have yeast infections under the breast and beneath other skin folds.

"Oral thrush

"White plaques from thrush are seen here inside the cheek and under the tongue. Oral thrush is one of the most common
candida infections to affect children. It is also more likely to occur the older we get. Adults can have infections around dentures.



When I had thrush deep in the vagina it itched intensely, too high up to scratch. I was treated by my Gyanecologist by pessaries, this was in 1991.  The yeast lives in the bowel so can be passed from anus to vagina via bad toilet hygiene.  LIVE yoghurt can ease symptoms: the idea is to eat it regularly for 3-5 days, which cleanses the digestive tract from mouth to anus.  I have when badly affected used it locally but remember; do keep the pots separate  .  Laying on a towel naked, applied with a tampon into the vagina it eases because it is cooling.  If I have to undergo elective surgery I eat plenty of LIVE yoghurt [not natural, that's different], 3 days prior to admission which stops problems.

I buy the GREEK yoghurt which has LIVE cultures.  When my dog had heartburn she loved to lick it off a spoon  [we have a thread about dogs too ........ ]

[CLKD]

Treatmedotnet

A die-off reaction, also called a Herxheimer reaction, can occur when treating the Lyme germ, some co-infections, and yeast. It occurs as bacteria or yeast die during antibiotic treatment. It is common to have Herxheimer die-off reactions when starting herbal anti-microbials or antibiotics when treating Lyme.

"8 Nov 2014

Trying to get myself round the various points that you have raised  .    Presumably 'lyme' refers to the disease which it is possible to contract via ticks?  Have you needed treatment for this?  The times my dog picked up ticks was in the UK Lake District when hunting through bracken fronds, I got to recognise the little critters as she was blonde or when they had fed on her and were blue/grey colour! 


It makes me so  when people say 'only' or 'just' because no situation is either!  If it affects someone enough to be bothersome then we should seek advice.  'only' hormones means what exactly?  GPs are notorious for mouthing off without being explicit  .

If you have had a recent bleed you may be experiencing crashing fatigue.  I remember my Mum sitting down suddenly and dropping off to sleep, quite scary as I had NO idea  .  [can you tell that I'm scrolling down your thread to keep up].

Have you taken LSD  - the nearest I came to what I thought a 'trip' would feel like was when I ate onions to which I am allergic : crikey! [long story short].

[EnglishRose]

Candida is NOT a bacteria.   It is a natural yeast on the body which thrives on sugars.  [think of brewing yeast which has to be kept alive?]

Candidiasis (yeast infection)

"What is candidiasis?
Candida is a type of yeast, or fungus, and candidiasis is a yeast infection.

"There are more than 20 types of Candida and they can live on our bodies causing no problems at all. However, in warm, moist conditions the fungi can multiply and cause infections. These can range from the harmless but irritating, think vaginal thrush or nappy rash, to infections that spread through the entire body, which for those with weakened immune systems can be life threatening.

"Examples of candidiasis

Vaginal thrush

"It is common for women to get vaginal thrush at some time in their life. This is often referred to as vaginal candidiasis.

"Adults can also have yeast infections under the breast and beneath other skin folds.

"Oral thrush

"White plaques from thrush are seen here inside the cheek and under the tongue. Oral thrush is one of the most common
candida infections to affect children. It is also more likely to occur the older we get. Adults can have infections around dentures.



When I had thrush deep in the vagina it itched intensely, too high up to scratch. I was treated by my Gyanecologist by pessaries, this was in 1991.  The yeast lives in the bowel so can be passed from anus to vagina via bad toilet hygiene.  LIVE yoghurt can ease symptoms: the idea is to eat it regularly for 3-5 days, which cleanses the digestive tract from mouth to anus.  I have when badly affected used it locally but remember; do keep the pots separate  .  Laying on a towel naked, applied with a tampon into the vagina it eases because it is cooling.  If I have to undergo elective surgery I eat plenty of LIVE yoghurt [not natural, that's different], 3 days prior to admission which stops problems.

I buy the GREEK yoghurt which has LIVE cultures.  When my dog had heartburn she loved to lick it off a spoon  [we have a thread about dogs too ........ ]

The irony is I don't suffer from thrush symptoms and I dont have digestive issues both of which are symptoms of systemic candida. All i know is when ever I take anything that destroys the candida (assuming I have it) I get very sick with typical die off symptoms...
I am awaiting the results of a stool test (That was something I never want to repeat! lol ) to see what bacteria/yeast I have in my gut and whether it has advanced into the bloodstream. And to test my "gut immunity" I am not sure what that means to be honest.

70% of our immune system lies in our guts - hormonal balances also depends heavily on the bacteria in our guts.

https://www.hormonesbalance.com/articles/how-the-gut-bacteria-impact-your-hormones/

[EnglishRose]

Treatmedotnet

A die-off reaction, also called a Herxheimer reaction, can occur when treating the Lyme germ, some co-infections, and yeast. It occurs as bacteria or yeast die during antibiotic treatment. It is common to have Herxheimer die-off reactions when starting herbal anti-microbials or antibiotics when treating Lyme.

"8 Nov 2014

Trying to get myself round the various points that you have raised  .    Presumably 'lyme' refers to the disease which it is possible to contract via ticks?  Have you needed treatment for this?  The times my dog picked up ticks was in the UK Lake District when hunting through bracken fronds, I got to recognise the little critters as she was blonde or when they had fed on her and were blue/grey colour! 


It makes me so  when people say 'only' or 'just' because no situation is either!  If it affects someone enough to be bothersome then we should seek advice.  'only' hormones means what exactly?  GPs are notorious for mouthing off without being explicit  .

If you have had a recent bleed you may be experiencing crashing fatigue.  I remember my Mum sitting down suddenly and dropping off to sleep, quite scary as I had NO idea  .  [can you tell that I'm scrolling down your thread to keep up].

Have you taken LSD  - the nearest I came to what I thought a 'trip' would feel like was when I ate onions to which I am allergic : crikey! [long story short].

Yes i took LSD in my early 20s (early 1990s) it was the age of the "rave scene" after all.

I don't think I have Lymes - I recall my mini Dachshund having what I thought was a wart on her ear whilst we were in Wales 4 years ago. It was there for 2 days before I googled it and realised it was a tick! I was beside myself! I removed it with tweezers VERY carefully ensuring I got the entire thing out without leaving the legs in and therefor releasing the toxins...
It came away with a POP I nearly threw up.....put it in a jar and examined it....ugly thing.

I was sick before all of that but its got worse these last 2 years. I just feel like I am always sick with flu and cold type symptoms... I have had blood tests and they always come back fine. My doc openly admits she is not trained in nutrition and the NHS as a whole does not subscribe to the idea of systemic candida claiming it only occurs to people with AIDs.

I recall many years ago discovering how vitamin D deficiency (technically a hormone not a vitamin) was an epidemic due to us working in offices and wearing make up with UV in and slapping sun  tan lotion on in fear of getting skin cancer. I spoke to my own doctor and that of my partner and was literally laughed at and told "No no no. Only elderly people living in residential homes get vitamin D deficiency!"
My partners test came back .3 he had less than me which was .12 - I think at the time the "normal" range was 30, its since gone up to 50.

So I have a HUGE mistrust of the NHS in general. They are sold branded pharma drugs by sales reps and stick rigidly to blood "normals" like we are all made from the same cookie cutter.

I was told at 43 I was too young to have hormonal issues and put on ADs.... took me 2 years to realise the symptoms were cyclical and always two weeks prior to my period and the ADs did nothing to resolve them. They may have softened the blow thats all.

[CLKD]

Very few things are, despite the media's insistence, 'epidemic' or 'pandemic'.  Those have to be contact driven, i.e. 'flu, measles, polio..   [..... was an epidemic due to us working in offices and wearing make up with UV in and slapping sun  tan lotion on in fear of getting skin cancer. ].

I feel so much better having had my blood tests which showed low VitD levels, it meant that I didn't have the dreadful disease I was thinking might be brewing    .  Now I know the symptoms I can re-start the capsules if necessary.  Mum was the same, yet she gets more time outside than I do.

Many GPs still insist fail to recognise early menopause.  There are people here who can give advice and do read the 'treatment' section above.

You would know if you had Lyme disease.  'flu-like symptoms, intense tiredness, general lethargy but it isn't often picked up by GPs! 

What symptoms would you expect with thrush?  I never felt ill.  Just itching!

[dangermouse]

The visual disturbance etc sounds like silent migraine by the way.

I too have been through all the suspected systemic Candida (without thrush), herx etc in the past and probiotics/candida supplements would sometimes make me worse and sometimes better, but after a stool test it showed none so I figured I'd been barking up the wrong tree.

My collection of symptoms were all down to perimenopause as it can affect everything and migraines are very common. I rarely have pain though, more nausea, dizziness, blurred vision, twitching muscles and dissociated feelings.

I've never tried the Cyclogest or Utrogestan, a a they seem quite strong, so went with a privately prescribed progesterone cream which has calmed everything down for me. You do get a ramping up of symptoms after a few days but it eventually calms down after a few weeks. Not sure if that's the oestrogen receptors re-sensitising or, as been reading Ray Peat's articles, he says that progesterone destroys the oestrogen binding protein which then dumps oestrogen into the blood stream so can feel rough while it's making its way out through the liver and bowels. This can, of course, feel like a herx/die off, like when you take antibiotics.

[CLKD]

    dangermouse

Can you tell that I'm browsing through and replying as and when  .  Learning every day too.

How are things today?

[EnglishRose]

The visual disturbance etc sounds like silent migraine by the way.

I too have been through all the suspected systemic Candida (without thrush), herx etc in the past and probiotics/candida supplements would sometimes make me worse and sometimes better, but after a stool test it showed none so I figured I'd been barking up the wrong tree.

My collection of symptoms were all down to perimenopause as it can affect everything and migraines are very common. I rarely have pain though, more nausea, dizziness, blurred vision, twitching muscles and dissociated feelings.

I've never tried the Cyclogest or Utrogestan, a a they seem quite strong, so went with a privately prescribed progesterone cream which has calmed everything down for me. You do get a ramping up of symptoms after a few days but it eventually calms down after a few weeks. Not sure if that's the oestrogen receptors re-sensitising or, as been reading Ray Peat's articles, he says that progesterone destroys the oestrogen binding protein which then dumps oestrogen into the blood stream so can feel rough while it's making its way out through the liver and bowels. This can, of course, feel like a herx/die off, like when you take antibiotics.

THANK YOU!

I too had a positive experience with probiotics, I took a smaller dosage felt flu like and then felt much better after two weeks, I actually got up to 2 probiotics a day slowly and had 18 months of excellent health.... but I stopped taking them and started eating sugar again and started feeling physically weak and sick all the time which is why I started taking them in the first place.

This time I took higher doses of probiotics along with various liver detox supplements and something called molybdenum and almost immediately started with the flu like symptoms (which I expected) but also spaced out, drugged up, drowsy, sensitive to bright lights, everything looked too vivid in colours, depressional waves, anxiety and I was sleeping for hours at night and still falling asleep after dinner on the sofa for half an hour.

What ever I took or did has created a chain reaction of hormonal Hell.

My stool tests come back later this week and my gut immunity so if I am told I don't have candida the first thing I am doing is buying some B&Js ice cream! lol Three months with NO sugars at all!

Thank you for your story and sharing it... my problem is I self diagnose from consulting with Doctor Google!

.but like most things once you're feeling better you forget to take the supplest

[dangermouse]

Oestrogen can get bound up in your tissues over time (it won't be seen on circulating blood tests) and when you start to heal the liver and organs, or lose weight, the oestrogen is thrown out into your blood. As oestrogen is a stimulant it can cause all sorts of weird and frightening symptoms. They're much better out than in though but can be tough as they exit through your blood, kidneys, liver, bowels etc.

The best thing is to slow down your detox, keep your stress hormones supported (so enough sugar) and kee your bowels moving. I've been using coconut oil as it makes everything more oiled up!

[EnglishRose]

Oestrogen can get bound up in your tissues over time (it won't be seen on circulating blood tests) and when you start to heal the liver and organs, or lose weight, the oestrogen is thrown out into your blood. As oestrogen is a stimulant it can cause all sorts of weird and frightening symptoms. They're much better out than in though but can be tough as they exit through your blood, kidneys, liver, bowels etc.

The best thing is to slow down your detox, keep your stress hormones supported (so enough sugar) and kee your bowels moving. I've been using coconut oil as it makes everything more oiled up!

Thank you for this. I also take diazepam and have been told unless you have stopped the drug altogether then detoxing will or can create withdrawal symptoms for the very same reason you outlined above.
I'm having HRT blood tests on Friday to check the ratio of progesterone against oestrogen (I use progesterone pessaries) if I had to take a guess I'd say my oestrogen is now low because I'm sleeping a lot which is not a typical PMS symptom for me, insomnia is something I've always blamed estrogen for as you say it's an stimulating hormone.
Progesterone is known as “natures Valium”as it's the hormone that makes us sleepy ...

I've stopped all supplements now...4 days ago.

who knows?

I just want my mind and sanity back.

I'll be sure to come back and update if only to help anyone else in my position.