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[Letmein]

dangermouse, all what you say make a lot of sense and indeed, is the basis for mindfulness. My issue is that my thoughts are not irrational or negative as such, they just won't stop firing. Even when I try mindfulness, I find (like many) that instead of concentrating on what's around me, getting my senses to take over, I can't help but mentally talking myself through what my senses are sensing!! The more I concentrate to stop it, the more I find myself thinking! I have found that walking along the beach listening to the waves crashing is the only thing that allows me to switch off after about 15 minutes for a few seconds at a time.

Indeed, rationalising our thoughts is hard but what's harder is making it happen. I find CBT to be amazing when dealing with fear and phobias, but I haven't found it working to shift anxiety driving by overthinking.

[CLKD]

Adrenaline and cortisol are different hormones by the way  , the latter is the wake up hormone first thing.

B4 going into a shop I work from top to bottom to make sure that nothing in my bones, muscles etc. feel ill  ........

[Hurdity]

Can I ask a stupid question, but what do we mean by anxiety? The word seems to be used in a number of different contexts. I tend to associate it to fear of something specific (like health anxiety or talking in public etc...) but recently, I am starting to think that anxiety can just be an extension of stress from a chronic perspective.

I never considered myself suffering from anxiety, but what I've started to suffer from more and more often since starting peri is worrying, in a fearful way but in a constant need to overthink things, analyse situations, weight decisions, consider consequences, tell myself that I won't cope with this or that. I go to sleep planning things for tomorrow, wake up immediately thinking of my day ahead, and I know that my brain remains as atuned at night (hence very little deep sleep).

My GP says that I suffer from Chronic Anxiety and that is the reason why I'm suffering from neurological symptoms and feel exhausted all the time. On hrt for 6 weeks now and no obvious sign of this getting better, although I think I might notice a bit of improvement the day after I change the patch.

I have so far found that the only thing that seem to help me a little bit is to go for a 1/2 hour walk on the beach where all I -try- to focus on is the sound of the waves. I really hope hrt will kick in but I'm wondering if it works best for reliving anxiety that it is trigger specific.

Can I ask, has anyone tried betablockers for physical issues relating to anxiety and has it helped and if so how?

I totally understand where you're coming from Letmein. Aside from the difference between anxiety and depression - I am sure there is a distinction between anxiety and excess worrying that you point out.

I am, always have been and always will be, a natural worrier in the way that you describe ( although now retired I don't have quite so much to worry about that causes me lack of sleep although I do sometimes with various life situations and even going on holiday (day after tomorrow!). Also guilty of over-thinking. However do I or have I ever "suffer(ed)" from anxiety? No and I wouldn't dream of giving myself such a label personally.

The frightening emotions that racjen and GypsyRoseLee describe - eg of being scared, unable to cope with situations, crying - sound to me exactly as I would imagine anxiety to be, such that you would need to visit a doctor and get treatment - whether it be medication, hormones, mental strategies etc. I think being a worrier and getting over-stressed by life circumstances does not mean you suffer from anxiety as some GPs seem to want to label women with, and therefore be treated with ADs. I would suggest the "worriers" are far better off being given mental strategies (and probably some hormones!) in order to cope ....

I also would never want to take beta-blockers unless I had a heart problem. As a side effect they lower blood pressure (mine is already often low) and I have read it can be difficult to come off them?

Hurdity x

[CLKD]

Why not take what the body requires?  Without my regime I wouldn't be here.   Anxiety 4 me strikes, hard.  Floors me at times.  Threatens my sanity.  I can worry for England too  but there are agencies and other help that can help sort the worries.  I can worry incidentally which can turn into anxiety ..........

Beta-blockas are designed to lower BP and were found that they ease anxiety as a 'side effect' which is why professional sports people are not allowed to take them.  I was given them to help anxiety and it keeps my BP low but not low enough to feel dizzy on standing.  That would require adjustment.

I was started on 80mg for 4 weeks followed by 40mg at night.  After several years I developed back-ground headaches so halved the 40mg, one at day and one at night.  6 months ago the headaches came back so now I take 20mg at night.  [Propranolol].

It has been a hard slog at times.  As part of the recommendations my GP asks me about every 18 months how I would feel if I was told to stop my medication ......... he is ticking boxes so has to ask but his hard work and my DH's loyalty would have been wasted  .

Do remember that if 1 gets through a health situation then the medication can be stopped.  Similarly if 1 finds that the particular choice doesn't help then it can be stopped with advice.

[dangermouse]

When I was really bad when oestrogen started surging I was prescribed beta blockers when a hospital doc and a GP couldn't get my heart rate down, after having done an ecg to know my heart was ok. The hospital doc was initially confused as they assumed I was panicking but after talking to me and seeing how calm I was they said it was purely physical and that a beta blocker would lower adrenaline, whereas the Diazepam I'd been given (which made me worse) was better for neurosis. I don't take anymore but it did the trick in calming the surging (you could actually see the waves swirling up my body which frightened the ultrasound nurse... but that's another story!) and it didn't lower my already low bp too much.

If you go to a GP for anxiety, worry, OCD etc. there's a 6-9 month waiting list for talking therapies so they tend to prescribe ADs if the patient wishes to try them. As CLKD knows, they can be just what someone needs also. Seeking help for any level of anxiety should be done when it's affecting your day to day life but most people would do well to learn how your thoughts affect your feelings and behaviours, I personally think it should be taught at school and then no one would over worry! If you think about it over worrying is stating untrue facts, so essentially lying to yourself, so why would you do that? Over-preparation is pointless as if something went wrong you'd then have the facts and would deal with it more smoothly because you hadn't wrung yourself dry with the earlier worst case scenarios.

When my clients say ‘what if, this and what if that?!!' I say ‘what if you win the lottery?!!'. Anything could happen, good or bad, just get on with your life, still be responsible but deal with what you need to at the time you have the facts.

Letmein - I've never studied mindfulness for myself or my practice and am not clear if it's distraction or, if its rational indulging in the fear, then that would be similar to Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy (REBT) which I practice and is very simple and would not allow for over thinking as you are so focused on the rational sentences you repeat to yourself. Windy Dryden has a great work book on it where you become your own therapist.

Next time your mind is running off with itself, write down what your thoughts are, what's the worst thing about what you're fearing, what's that one thing that if you could take that away things would be ok? That will give you the magic clue to your underlying belief(s) that are causing you to feel so out of control.

Good luck!

[CLKD]

What's the worst that could happen, well 4 me it was that the panic would get worse and kill me  .  Logic goes out the window.

It is dreadful that sufferers have to wait so long for treatments in the UK.  Which is where ADs etc. can help.  As can yoga, relaxation therapy, swimming ........ brisk walking.  Some find knitting soothing but would never work for me  .

Many years ago the waiting list was 18 months at least, when the NHS rang to ask if I still wanted the appt. I said yes.  The therapist admitted at the 2nd appt. that I know more about anxiety than she did  .  That was int he 1990s so nowt has improved. Mental Health Service has always been way down there, along with geriatric care.

4 me the anxiety is first followed by the brain joining in.  I tried deep breathing this morning, don't know if it worked but I didn't get any worse. 

[dangermouse]

Yours may be more deep-seated as you've said you've had it since birth CLKD.

However... if I thought “that the panic would get worse and kill me”, I would feel extremely anxious. I would, thus, instead tell myself that “even if the panic got worse, it wouldn't kill me” and that would lower my anxiety. That is true whereas the first one is a lie. Part of the therapy though is for you to believe the rational statements over the irrational, then you recite them knowing they're true, otherwise they're just words.

Another one to show you the difference once you believe it, might be “that the panic would get worse and aliens would charge into my home and kill me”. You know that's silly so it can't affect you and thats how you feel about your original thoughts once you see through them.

[GypsyRoseLee]

You make an interesting point Hurdity. By nature, I am not a worrier at all and am known for having a very chilled outlook on life in general. So for my part, I know when I 'dip' it's purely an internal chemically driven imbalance, and nothing to do with what's going on in my life. It does make me feel totally helpless if I'm honest.

[GypsyRoseLee]

That's such sensible advice dangermouse. When I 'dip' my worst fear is that I will always feel this wretched and frightened and unable to cope for the rest of my life. Except the rest of my life wouldn't be that long because the feelings are so awful that I would just end it all.

It doesn't matter that I can look back in my diary and see in black & white that I have had numerous 'dips' and they never last more than 7-10 days. Each time I 'dip' I am so fearful that THIS time will be different and it will never go away 

[dangermouse]

GRL - On the surface you may think that your thoughts when you have your dip could happen. However, the evidence all points to the opposite:

So “I will always feel this wretched and frightened and unable to cope for the rest of my life, and will therefore have to end it all” is all based on a lie that when you've felt so wretched and frightened its never changed.

The true statement would be “I will sometimes feel this wretched and frightened and unable to cope, but it always changes and I do always cope and so I'd never have to end it all”.

Even if you're locked into an anxious state at the time, if you focus on the true statement you may not be able to bring your physical hormone driven anxiety down, but you can grab back some control so that you can then move on more easily with your day until it all passes again.

Breathing out through your open mouth really slowly (and back in just through your nose) as if you're trying to empty all your breath can also relax your body at the same time.

It's all about ‘doing something specific instead of' to replace and reprogramme as opposed to distraction which isn't as powerful and isn't dealing with the actual cause.

[racjen]

Like GRL I believe the anxiety I suffer from is purely chemically driven - it has nothing to do with thoughts whatsoever, and no amount of talking therapies of any kind,  or relaxation methods, have made a dent in it. It should have a different name to distinguish it from the more cognitive, worrying kind of anxiety - this is a more primitive thing, I'd call it fear or dread, not anxiety. I'm not a worrier, I never have been; I can deliberately turn off worrying thoughts when they start up with deliberate rationalising. My fear and dread are something else entirely, and I've had the brief, frustrating experience of having them turned off magically by testosterone for a few days, and it then stopping working for no reason anyone can fathom. Also my fear and dread disappear in the evening and I feel like a different person - don't believe there could be that much difference if it was about thought processes and not just the pattern of hormone production. So I know this is a physical thing.

[Letmein]

Hurdity, you describe how I feel perfectly and I totally agree with you, I've never -until now- considered it to be Anxiety. It really is more stress. Saying that, the outcome is not much different. It impacts on the rest of our bodies, destroy sleeps, and leaves us totally exhausted.

The hospital doc was initially confused as they assumed I was panicking but after talking to me and seeing how calm I was they said it was purely physical and that a beta blocker would lower adrenaline, whereas the Diazepam I'd been given (which made me worse) was better for neurosis. I don't take anymore but it did the trick in calming the surging (you could actually see the waves swirling up my body which frightened the ultrasound nurse... but that's another story!) and it didn't lower my already low bp too much.

This is very interesting thank you. Like you, I was prescribed Diazepam when I was at my worse, but I didn't like it either. It works wonder making me feel sleepy but even then I don't have a better quality sleep, the unconscious is still doing its business. It's temporary relief, which although welcome at times, doesn't solve the issue at all. My BP is good, my resting heart rate very low though (under 55). The miracle drug I'm looking for really is the one that will help me relax, mentally, but if not at least physically.

My issues are really not with negative thoughts though. I'm actually a very problem solving orientated person. My issue is control and struggling to let go. I trust my actions rather than fate. I would have thought that at this stage of my life I would finally be able to start relaxing but no. My issues are definitely linked to work but not working is not an option (still some years to go before retirement!). The 'medicine' for people like me is supposed to be Mindfulness, ie. meditation. Anyone tried it with success?

Hurdity, I've heard that this does get better after retirement but hope once you've reached your holiday destination, you really get to let go and enjoy the true meaning of relaxation!

[Letmein]

Just to add racjen, although I agree that the anxiety you seem to experience is different to the over worrying type, I do think both can be fueled by hormones and similarly, there are times of the day when I feel much better than others. In many ways, my life is significantly less stressful than it's been at specific times of my life, yet I find myself much more cognitively alert than I've ever been. It does feel like I am constantly hit my adrenalin. I can just about cope with it during the day, but curse it at night. The worse is that I know within a few minutes of going to sleep how my night is going to go. If I fall asleep easily, I have a chance, but if I don't, even though I know I always do end up falling asleep within an hour or two, I know my sleep will be disturbed with next to no deep sleep and I will wake up feeling like I have been partying all night!

[knorman]

I think it is a mixture of both.  I know for sure that my thoughts have been affecting the health issue I have at the moment. If I think about it I start to have a knot in my stomach and I shallow breathe and I know that it is as a result of my thoughts.  But it is very hard to control them sometimes!

[CLKD]

4 me it's the other way round knorman  . bugga ...........