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[Bo]

Hi All
I have consulted my GP today about trying some bio-identical testosterone. No female on his patient list is on it already so he is going to research it and get back to me. I, of course, have been looking online to buy some myself. I can see that Testim and Testogel both come in sachets. If we are to use one tenth of the recommended 5g dose per day for men, will the gel remain viable once the sachets have been opened? 

[Hurdity]

It's not really a good idea to buy this online or any medication really unless through a prescription... hopefully your doctor will find out that he can prescribe it off license - but he is under no obligation to. If not then maybe an e-mail consultation with Dr Currie might help and you could take a print-out of her comments to him?

I was prescribed testosterone by a private gynae and she advised to squeeze out a small blob and then fold over the top and seal with a paper clip. There is no indication that the contents (ie active ingredient testosterone) will break down over the course of 2 weeks (which is how long mine lasts).

Hurdity x

[Katia]

I think the excessive amount of alcohol in the gel will preserve it

[Bo]

Thank you both. I haven't bought online, i will wait for my GP, and consult Dr Currie if need be. Thank you for the tip there

[Hurdity]

To do the consultation with Dr C you go to the home page of the main website and scroll down - costs £25. Let us know how you get on

Hurdity x

[Bo]

Morning all, I saw GP today and he has referred me to an endocrinologist, which will probably take 3 months. He cannot prescribe testosterone, only a consultant can do it.
Meanwhile, i am applying just one pump of Oestrogel a day, and taking 1 Utrogestan orally for 25 days a month. Using it vaginally increased my oestrogen dominance symptoms. I decreased to about half a pump of O in the 5 day break but still felt some oestrogen dominance problems creeping back. I didn't have a bleed or any cramping in the 5 day break.

I still have one or two mild to medium flushes a night, a few in the first hour or so after i get up, and then i'm pretty much free of them during the day. GP says i am 'an outlier' (he wasn't being facetious) because i am so sensitive to all hormonal medicines (had issues getting my Levothyroxine balanced too) and the majority of women do fine on the standard hrt.

Anyway i have put on just a few pounds, i would like more energy/strength, and i am slowly losing my hair! Perhaps i should just buy some Testim and try it...i might be bald in 3 months!   

[Hurdity]

Hi there Bo - thanks for the update. Not sure what you mean by oestrogen dominance symptoms - there shouldn't really be any?  Any differences you feel when you take progesterone the different ways are to do with the prgoesterone not the oestrogen! Taken vaginally you actually absorb more systemically than when taken orally as much is lost to digestion that way. Also taken orally progesterone goes through the liver and produces more metabolites and these are the ones that usually produce the adverse side effects - that most women don't like (dizziness, tiredness, nausea)! I think the symptoms you are feeling are due to something else. It's probably not a good idea to reduce the oestrogen dose for 5 days as this can also give rise to symptoms. Also any symptoms you experiences after stopping the progesterone may just be due to progesterone withdrawal - a bit like pms.

I can't remember where you are in menopause but usually it's good to have a medium dose oestrogen and get your oestrogen levels up before introducing testosterone as it is the balance between these two hormones that is crucial - and more important than oestrogen/prog - although you need high doses of prog to protect the womb. It will be interesting to hear what the endocrinologist says. A higher dose of oestrogen may well help your energy levels and also have you thought of taking progesterone on a shorter cycle - ie 200 mg for 10-12 days? That way you may feel less tired - subject to your thyroid levels being well controlled? Using less progesterone (ie not all the time) and more oestrogen should help your hair too.

I really wouldn't buy it though....it's only 3 months and there are other tweaks you could do in the meantime like I've suggested - if your doc is OK with this?

It's a minefield isn't it?!

Hurdity x

[Bo]

OK, i must have misunderstood then as i thought less progesterone was absorbed systemically when used as a pessary, but more got to the uterus.  My GP said as much when i used Ovestin cream - very little got absorbed into the body.

I looked up oestrogen dominance and i had many of the symptoms (when on 2 pumps Oestro and using Utro vaginally). Unfortunately it seems that symptoms of both low oestrogen and oestrogen dominance are very similar, including hair loss and flushes.

I used two pumps Oestro for about 3 months, and experimented with dosage routes of the Utro. During this time, I had bad depression, sore boobs, brain fog, mood swings, lethargy, period-type cramps (when using Utro vaginally), and still had some flushes. I am certainly much better on one pump of Oestrogel a day and 100mg Utro orally than i was on two pumps and using Utro vaginally. Interestingly, i haven't had a 'bleed' on any of the Utro breaks (yet), although i had bad cramping on the break before last, when i had been on the dosages described before.

Also, before i started on BHRT, anything with decent amounts of phyto-oestrogens in them made my flushes worse: especially flax seed supplements, and Menopause Rx (mung bean extract) which works well (apparently) for many women.

I just would like to stop the night flushes completely, and the hair loss, and have a bit more energy; although i played two doubles' tennis matches while having a head cold today and did ok.

I haven't had a period for 3 to 4 years now. I 'caved in' to starting BHRT after waiting in vain for the flushes / night sweats to stop. Apart from the flushes though, i was doing ok pre-hrt, certainly no hair loss. Sometimes i feel like stopping again and putting up with the flushes   

[Tinkerbellj]

Hi bo.......I use the system hurdity just described and habe gone from four pumps a day to one and back up again lol trying to grt the right level..definitely recommend the vaginal use of progesterone for seven days and also my gp gave me testim gel no problem so they can prescribe!  Do u have a meno clinic.  Usually can get an appointment quicker and an endo probably wont really understand menopause anyway. But after only four days of testim my energy levels r much better so fingers crossed xxxxx

[Hurdity]

Bo - yes that is the case with vaginal oestrogen because the dose is so low (very little systemic absorption) but with progesterone pessaries the dose is very high. Although more goes to the uterus than with oral progesterone - a higher dose also gets into the system (there was a study confirming this somewhere but haven't looked it up for some years...). As I said in my other post much of the oral dose is lost through digestion but the prog goes through the liver and as it is metabolised it produces certain metabolites that seem to be the cause of some of the adverse side effects so actually the side effects from oral prog tend to be worse for most women (who are affected). I can hunt around for it (the paper) if you are interested.  If you are not getting a bleed on that regime then presumably you are not building up enough womb lining on just 1 pump of estrogel?

Hurdity x

[Bo]

Thank you both for your replies. My GP discussed it with the practice management and they concluded that prescribing of testosterone had to be 'consultant-led' because it isn't currently licensed in UK for women, and my GP did not know enough about it to feel confident prescribing. I have asked for a referral to a consultant gynae rather than an endo.

I definitely felt worse using Utro vaginally. I used it this way for 2 weeks, and then tried alternate days (one oral, one V) but that didn't work well either. Because my previous problems (very sore boobs, depression, mood swings etc) have cleared up since reducing the Oestro, i am reluctant to try increasing up to 4 pumps. I tried applying one pump twice a day for a while but that made no difference to the miserable side-effects: the only things that worked were reducing the Oestro and taking Utro orally. We are all different, i guess.

I am hoping that the recent hair loss is a delayed side-effect (from when i was having the 'big' problems mentioned above), because i know from having had chemo that our hair doesn't start falling out until at least 21 days following the first dose: there's always a delay because of the growth cycle of hair.

Hopefully, i will get an appointment soon and start to untangle (excuse hair-related pun) what's going on. 

[Katia]

Bo, I had some of the same issues you're having. I found the gel caused me to have flushes and night sweats too.  I think it's very strong.  I tried testosterone and lasted only a couple of days with it.  It didn't work for me as it seems to increase the estrogen even more.  I'm having problems with my hair too.