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Author Topic: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!  (Read 47484 times)

pb42

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Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« on: August 12, 2017, 05:45:50 AM »

After putting up with menopause symptoms, horrible hot flushes, achey joints and tiredness for a year, I was given Evorel Conti 50 which I have been taking since July/August last year.  Worked a treat until around January this year when I noticed i had started to get hot and the odd ache returning.  Nowhere near as bad as what I was getting but seem to be gradually getting worse but not unbearable.  I went to doctors and asked can I go on Evorel Conti 75 and was told not that simple and cannot just up it.   A lot of what she was saying was going over top of my head.  I just assumed that the 75 was higher/stronger so there if needed. Anybody else used EC 50 this then found stopped being as effective?  What did you do?
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Annie0710

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2017, 07:49:07 AM »

I'm not sure why they said that.  If symptoms start returning it's either absorption problems or just not strong enough

If you have spare patches try cutting one in half and adding that to see if it brings relief
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Nula

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2017, 07:59:25 AM »

Hey there.  Yes I had a similar thing.  I was on evorel 50.  Worked for about 6 months then meno symptoms started to creep back in.  I was eventually taken off it due to severe migraine.  I agree with Annie0710 in that it sounds like it's either not strong enough dose or not being absorbed for some reason so may need to try a different route.

How's it been left with gp?   Hopefully they're working to sort a solution for you.
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Wrensong

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2017, 10:44:49 AM »

Hi pb42 - I had poor absorption from Evorel Conti with incompletely resolved symptoms, but have only just had this confirmed with a low oestradiol test.  I think the Evorel Conti only comes in the one strength - 50mcg oestradiol, but you could perhaps swap to a different patch (say Estradot) or gel with separate progesterone/progestogen.  You could either stick with the same dose of oestradiol by patch in the hope of absorbing more from a different preparation (I seem to absorb better from Estradot) or try a higher dose if you prefer & can find another GP more willing to let you experiment.

It might simply be that the progestogen in the Evorel Conti is preventing you getting full benefits from HRT.  Another option is FemSeven Conti, which has a different progestogen but comes in the same 50mcg oestradiol dose as Evorel Conti if you prefer to stay with just one combined preparation.  This would be only one patch change per week as opposed to the two with Evorel Conti, but I have heard these don't adhere that well. 

You asked how others have got around the problem - I've tried several different regimes, and am hoping the latest, started just this week will be the one!  This is Estradot 50mcg patch with Utrogestan capsules.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 10:51:53 AM by Wrensong »
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Mary G

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2017, 03:15:28 PM »

That sounds like nonsense, why can't you just increase to a 75mcg patch if that is what you want to do?

I had exactly the same problem as you and ended up on a 100mcg patch and still wasn't getting enough oestrogen.  I now use Oestrogel and find it absorbs far more easily and I have finally got to where I need to be oestrogen wise - it is also very flexible and easy to adjust the dose up or down as necessary.  Why not give it a try?
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pb42

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2017, 07:39:04 PM »

Thank you everyone for replies.  Great to be able to hear your views and opinions.   I thought as Evorel Conti came in 25, 50, 75 and 100 i could just up but judging by what Wrensong has said and which I think the doctor was saying too (which confused me as after reading evorel website just thought 100 dose a bigger patch? )just one strength so wondering what the 75 and 100 are?  I saw another doctor a few months back and also mentioned could I up to 75 and he was saying sort of same thing about not being able  to just go up to 75.  He spent that long staring at his computer screen I just ended up asking for same.  I have another appointment (different doctor) next week and need to sort as will be nearly finished my patches.  As regards to using 1.5 patches at a time as Annie  suggested (never thought of that) has anyone done that?  Would I use 1.5 all the time for the two different patches.  Everyone seems more clued up about these things than me.  Thanks again everyone.
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Annie0710

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2017, 08:18:06 PM »

I was on estradot patch 75mg and I think I ran out so snipped my old 50mcg in half.  One nurse said I couldn't/shouldn't do it but it worked

And I've read others do it too to gradually increase
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Wrensong

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2017, 08:49:15 PM »

pb42, I think there's maybe a bit of confusion about the different Evorel products!  As I understand it, the Evorel Conti is what's usually meant by the combined oestradiol-norethisterone patch & comes in only one strength releasing approx 50mcg oestrogen a day, plus the progesterone.  These are generally used post-meno for women who don't want to have a bleed. 

The Evorel brand also comes in oestradiol only patches in the various dosages you list, but if you need progesterone too you would have to take this separately. 

You mentioned cutting 2 different patches & I now wonder whether you are on Evorel Sequi with 2 different types of patch each used for 2 weeks in sequence?
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pb42

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2017, 06:34:40 AM »

Hi Wrensong,  I think you have just cleared up my confusion about evorel conti and different strengths!   I have one box per month but two different  patches for a fortnight.  I had not had a period for a year when went on them.  So the higher patch, the one i wanted, 75, isn't just a higher dose which I thought which would explain the two doctors answers!   So if my symptoms are returning, albeit not unbearable,( but if i'm taking HRT i want it to work) would supplementing the EC with a gel work do you think or do I need to look for something totally different?  I have had no side affects from EC.       I always think it is best to be more clued up before visitng the doctor.
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Hurdity

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2017, 07:49:54 AM »

Hi pb42

So you are taking Evorel sequi which is 2 weeks of Evorel 50 and 2 weeks of Evorel conti - this often leads to  confusion I agree! I presume you have a withdrawal bleed at some point towards the end of the pack or just after starting the new pack.

How old are you? There is no reason not to increase your oestrogen dose but as Wrensong has said you would need to change HRT preparation to a separate oestrogen and progestogen so that you could increase the oestrogen and progestogen separately.  Also as said this progestogen could also contibute to some side effects. You could ask to increase by adding half a patch but this would give you much higher progestogen during the conti phase which could lead to adverse side effects - some women have found that even taking cyclical HRT the hot flushes resume during the combi phase of HRT so take a higher dose at this point too.

I use Estradot patches (very small and stick well) along with utrogestan ( micronised progesterone ) on a long cycle ( 6-8 weeks) with the approval of my doctor - but I am maybe 9 years post-menopause.

All the HRT preparations are listed above - pale green banner - Treatments/HRT preparations.

Hurdity x
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Wrensong

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2017, 09:45:30 AM »

Hi again pb42, Hurdity's post will have been helpful as always, but I just want to add a couple of thoughts.  If you had gone a year without periods when you started HRT, did you opt for a sequential regime (that would presumably mean you started to have bleeds again) or were you not given the choice of a bleed-free (combi conti) regime?  Many women do prefer to continue to have bleeds because this means they only have to take a form of progesterone for part of the cycle & as it's usually progesterone that brings the worst side effects they want to minimize exposure to it.  If, as you say, you had no side effects from the Evorel Conti, this suggests you are not progesterone intolerant as such, so if you have continued to put up with bleeds & would prefer not to, you might want to consider trying a continuous regime i.e. one where you take both hormones at the same dose every day.  That said, be warned that combi conti regimes are not always bleed-free, especially in the first months while the body adapts. 

As the progestogen part of HRT is also thought to be the element that carries the risks (albeit small), some ladies understandably prefer to stick with a sequi regime to keep any risks to a minimum.  You didn't mention dissatisfaction with being on a sequi regime, so my suggesting a combi conti regime may be unnecessarily complicating the decision, but if you are about to change regimes I just thought you might want to consider a bleed-free option.

As for your question about adding oestradiol gel to your existing Evorel Sequi regime - I wouldn't do this personally (certainly not without approval of a gynae) as this might increase your oestrogen levels beyond the capacity of the progestogen to protect the uterine lining.  That said, Sandrena gel was added to my Evorel Conti regime for a few months, but this was prescribed by a well-respected gynae & I later stopped it in agreement with my GP, as I continued to have bleeds beyond the "acceptable" initial 6 months.

As Hurdity says, if you simply add another half of the Evorel patches, this would give you rather a high dose of progestogen during the second phase & if the progestogen in the Evorel Conti patches is perhaps already preventing you getting full benefits from the oestradiol, this probably won't make you feel any better than you already do!

Hurdity & I both use Estradot patches with Utrogestan, but as Hurdity says, she prefers a sequential regime, whereas I take Utrogestan continuously.  It's a matter of how progesterone makes you feel & whether you mind having a bleed.  The Utrogestan is the most natural form of progesterone btw & as such is thought to be more "breast-friendly".  Not everyone gets on well with it though & I have twice had to abandon trials of it in the past!  As Hurdity suggests, have a look at the list of preparations available - the Estradot & Utrogestan combination is only one choice.

Sorry this is rather long - I hope it doesn't make things even more confusing!
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pb42

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2017, 09:29:33 PM »

Thank you both for very detailed replies.   I was 55 when my periods stopped abruptly and following month the horrible flushes and other symptoms started.   I never fancied the thought of taking HRT (assuming , for some reason I was going to sail through all this) but when the symptoms came along I knew I had to.  As I hadn't read  up on anything to do with the menopause as i never went through missed periods/symptoms when I did read it seemed to be the horses urine that caught my attention thinking that was all available.  When I saw the nurse (no idea why not a doctor) she said 'yes, it's horses urine' and I said 'no' i'm not taking that.  No other option was given and was nearly a year before I asked for referral to specialist. She suggest the  EC50 but said you will have a monthly bleed......I never did or had one!   Eeeh should I have mentioned this to doctor?  Only twice, months into it, did i notice a few spots, and I mean only a few and nothing since.   I clearly need to read up on your suggestions and will look at the list on here.  I'm assuming that the dosage i shigher than what I have now?
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Wrensong

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2017, 09:11:42 AM »

I don't imagine not having had a bleed on a sequi regime is a problem, but I would just ask about this when you go for your HRT appt.  I've had the opposite problem i.e. persistent bleeding on "no-bleed" combi conti regimes!  So this has had to be investigated with USS, hysteroscopy etc but all OK to date.

You say "I'm assuming that the dosage is higher than what I have now?"  You can opt to try a higher dose oestradiol-only patch than the 50mcg in the Evorel Sequi (with separate progesterone) or if you want to continue with a combi product, I think FemSeven Sequi & Conti patches are 50mcg like your Evorel, but as FemSeven has a different progestogen &/or you may absorb better from that brand of patch, that might be change enough to get rid of symptoms.  I seem to absorb better from Estradot patches, so it's possible that you might get more oestrogen out of the same dosage patch of a different brand to Evorel, or you might need to go up to 75mcg.  Oestradiol gel with separate progesterone is another option & this has the advantage that the gel gives greater flexibility with dosage.  It will be trial & error, I think.  Good luck with whatever you choose & do please post again if there's anything we might be able to help with.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2017, 09:14:25 AM by Wrensong »
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pb42

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2017, 12:31:23 PM »

Thank you very much for all your replies and help.  Things are a lot clearer and will let you outcome of doctors appointment next week.
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Wrensong

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Re: Do I need a higher HRT dosage-help!
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2017, 02:52:08 PM »

Sorry pb42, been thinking about this a bit more, like a dog with a bone!  One last thing - if you are a patient of either a Menopause Clinic or Gynae, rather than just GP monitored, I think they should be willing to test your oestradiol level while still on the Evorel Sequi.  If this is low, unless their advice is different, I think it might be a bit of a shock to the system to go straight to a 75mcg oestradiol patch of another brand in case you absorb that a lot better.  I think this is what probably happened with me when I went from Evorel Conti to Estradot 75 & had horrible side effects that forced me to stop.  A good few weeks after stopping that trial, my oestradiol levels were still twice what they had been on the Evorel, so were presumably way higher while actually on the Estradot.  Also - if you have been absorbing very poorly, this might explain why you've not had bleeds on the Sequi.  No need to reply to this & I'll leave you in peace now!  Good luck with it.
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