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Author Topic: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....  (Read 8574 times)

Mav196

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Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« on: July 05, 2017, 01:36:07 PM »

Hi everyone
This is my first post and I am in total despair - I am truly hoping you can help me.  I am 47 yrs old and 2 yrs ago I began to experience rapid and diffuse eyebrow hair loss and loss of hair on forearms. A dermatologist concluded it was probably Alopecia, I also went to an Endocrinologist for a full hormone work up which ruled out any underlying  thyroid or autoimmune disease.  After 6 months or so the hair loss stopped but it didn't regrow.  Fast forward to last year and literally out of the blue I was hit with daily unrelenting headaches and debilitating daily dizziness.  An ENT ruled out vertigo, a Neurologist concluded based on my age and the fact that I am female this is chronic migraine due to perimenopause.  Prior to this I have never suffered from headaches nor migraine.  I have tried and failed a beta blocker and Amitriptyline and I am now tapering off Gabapentin due to some awful side effects. The same Endocrinologist retested my hormones recently and said she would struggle to label me perimenopausal. My cycle has started to fluctuate to 25, 26 and 27 days and the most recent symptom is now vaginal discomfort and dryness, I do not have any hot flushes or night sweats.  I literally don't know where to turn next - I have been unable to work or drive for the last number of months.  I have listed my bloods below and would be grateful to hear your thoughts as to whether this nightmare is as a result of peri and whether I should seek a gynae consultation.
Estradiol - Day 4: 191 (77-921 pmol/l)
Estradiol - Day 15: 454 (139-2382 pmol/l)
Estradiol - Day 20: 907 (77-1145 pmol/l)

Progesterone - Day 4: 1.0 (0.3-0.95 nmol/l)
Progesterone - Day 20: 50.9 (3.8-50.6 nmol/l)

FSH - Day 4: 12.0 (3.03-8.08 IU/L)

LH - Day 4: 3.0 (1.80-11.78 IU/L)

Thanks so much
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 01:41:09 PM by Mav196 »
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Mbrown001

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2017, 01:47:22 PM »

Hi couldn't just pass without welcoming you to the forum.

We have some very knowledgeable members that will be along soon to help.

Elizabethrose in particular is our migraine expert (although she doesn't want to be ), she will be able to understand what you are going through.

You will find lots of help and support here.

Mrs Brown
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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2017, 02:10:25 PM »

Thanks sparkle and MrsB for your support. Hopefully someone will come along who can interpret the bloods and symptoms for me.  My life has literally fallen apart in the last 10 months and every specialist I have gone to has a different opinion.
Thanks
Mav
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nearly50

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2017, 03:22:02 PM »

Hiya

I can give you the medicheck ranges if they're any help

17-BETA OESTRADIOL   
       
Ref Range: Follicular    98  -571 pmol/L
Ref Range: Mid-cycle    177  -1153 pmol/L
Ref Range: Luteal       122  -1094 pmol/L
Ref Range: Post-meno    < 183 pmol/L


LUTEINISING HORMONE                   
Ref Range: Follicular   2.4 -12.6 IU/L
Ref Range: Mid-cycle   14.0 -95.6 IU/L
Ref Range: Luteal       1.0 -11.4 IU/L
Ref range: Post-meno    7.7 -58.5 IU/L

FOLLICLE STIM. HORMONE           
     
Ref Range: Follicular    3.5 -12.5IU/L
Ref Range: Mid-cycle     4.7 -21.5 IU/L
Ref Range: Luteal        1.7 -7.7 IU/L
Ref Range:Post-meno     25.8 -134.8 IU/L

I think they are struggling to label you as perimenopausal because your cycle lengths haven't shortened much or become irregular, and without any hot flushes. That doesn't mean you aren't suffering from symptoms though, you might well be in late reproductive stage.

I'm sure you'll get some good advice on here from more knowledgeable ladies though.
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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2017, 06:56:34 PM »

Thanks nearly50.....I am almost demented trying to find the underlying cause of this....it seems that the drugs given by the neurologists are really aimed at treating the symptoms rather than the cause...it is so disappointing and the impact on my family and work life has been truly devastating.
I look forward to hearing from lots of posters here - I bet their knowledge and experiences will be far more informative and accurate than any doctor I have seen in the last 10 months!!
Mav
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Elizabethrose

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2017, 09:37:07 PM »

Hi Mav welcome to the forum, it's lovely to have you join us.

I've just read your post and feel desperate for you; migraine is so very difficult to cope with. I have had a long and brutal battle with it but have to say I've come through the other side which is exactly what my specialists suggested would happen once through a natural meno. I'm nine months since my last bleed so very nearly there but the migraines have already dramatically diminished in intensity and frequency.

The great difficulty with bloods is that in peri you can get a different reading every month they are done. You've offered one months example, have they only done one months worth? The other great difficulty is that despite what some of the well known studies like SWAN conclude, women manifest early peri differently so it is very difficult to really distinguish between late reproductive stage and early peri. The sudden onset of migraine, vaginal discomfort and dryness is a good indication that early peri may have started for you. Flushes and night sweats often start much later and sometimes not at all. In my early peri I was getting regular adrenal surges through the night without the flushes: enough to wake me and leave me awake for hours. I found that the night flushes came when my oestrogen plummeted before a period.

Before I make suggestions to try to help, would you mind if I ask you some questions?

Did you suffer with PMT, painful periods? Are you aware of ovulation taking place with mid cycle ovulation pain? Do you have any awareness of your vaginal mucus changes through your cycle? Do you suffer with breast swelling, bloating at points in your cycle? Any anxiety/depression and can you pinpoint it to particular times in your cycle? Have you ever kept records of your cycle and symptoms experienced including the migraine? Who have you seen i.e. what specialism's? What meds have they prescribed for you? What has been done to try to treat the migraine aside from the three prophylactics you mentioned?  Do you use any acute meds? Do you medicate the headaches/migraine, if so how frequently? Are there any particular things you recognise as triggers for the headaches and truly, how frequently are you getting the migraine? Are the migraine accompanied by aura either visual or other? Do you find they respond to medication? You mention work, how stressful/demanding is it? At what point in the day does the migraine first manifest itself?

Sorry, so many questions, but I'm trying to build a picture of what's been tried. I can analyze and maybe offer some suggestions but don't want to do this without knowing what you're dealing with and what's been done.

I really wish you well and would be happy to help in any way I can. Ponder the questions and do ask if you need help answering them, we are all able to read our bodies differently. I'm really trying to establish how hormonally sensitive you've been throughout your reproductive life as that can paint a picture for us of what lies ahead but can also help us analyze how to treat what's happening. I'm really no migraine expert but have far far too much experience of dealing with the pesky things and have seen some very well regarded specialists so may be able to pass some hot tips on to you.

I send you all good wishes x
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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2017, 12:09:43 AM »

Hi Elizabethrose, thank you so much for your post and for offering to help me try to figure this out. From an early age I always had agonising periods and so I spent my 20s and 30s on combined birth control pills. In the latter years and up to 2015 I was on the mini pill. In Aug 2015 when I went to my GP with eyebrow and forearm hair loss he told me to stop the pill as it can sometimes trigger Alopecia. So since then I have endured terrible periods - the flow is heavy but bearable but the pain is awful...it feels like I am constipated but I know that I am not - it's like poker pains that literally take my breath away and makes me feel faint....the trapped gas feeling lasts for up to 3 days after the flow stops.  The chronic headaches and dizziness started one day abruptly in Sept of last year and for 2 months I was told it was vertigo of inner ear origin. Subsequently I was diagnosed with chronic migraine - between Nov and Jan I tried and failed Inderal and Amitriptyline.  I had to wait until April to see my current neurologist and so between Jan and April I kept a diary to see if there was a pattern with my cycle. Looking back over it I can't find a pattern - there is no consistent link with ovulation or menstruation for example last month I wasn't any worse on my period but this month I was crippled at Day 21 and on my period.  I have a chronic headache all of the time and then I have days that are much worse - the pressure in my head is almost unbearable and it makes me dizzy. The pain has changed over the months - initially it was a specific point on the top left of my head punctuated by zaps (like when you are on an aircraft and it drops altitude suddenly) and dizziness.  Then it muted down to a constant dull, brain foggy hangover type and then it ramps up to a tightening pressure and my eyes feel strained and out of focus and I can barely concentrate.  I don't have a throbbing/pulsating headache that people talk about nor do I need to lie down in a dark room -The dizziness is not a feeling of spinning - it's like a dizzy feeling inside my head.

In the early days of this I tried paracetamol, ibuprofen, codeine, migraleve, excedrin but they didn't touch the pain and so I stopped taking them as I was aware of rebound headaches.  I also tried Sumatriptan on 2 occasions and both times it made the pain worse. My current neuro prescribed Gabapentin and wanted me to ramp up to 600mg twice daily, when I got to 400mg twice daily my head pain was reducing but I felt spaced out for most of the day and I started to experience bladder discomfort. He told me that he has never heard of Gabapentin causing these type of side effects!! But he agreed I should titrate slowly down off them so I am at 500mg total daily at the moment. He then wants me to go on Epilim (valproate) but I have read that a very common side effect of Epilim is hair loss and so I sent an email to his office asking for an alternative.

In relation to triggers, I am demented trying to figure that out. In the first two month of this I was extremely nauseated from the pain and dizziness and barely ate at all, when my appetite returned I cut out caffeine, chocolate, cheese , alcohol etc but it didn't make a difference. I have been on sick leave from work since last Sept and so there is no work stress in the mix either.

In relation to what time of day the migraine manifests - every morning when I am lying in bed just after waking up it feels like there is something moving/tugging inside my head and I think oh no it's going to be a bad one. But 9 times out of 10 when I get up initially it's not as bed as it felt in bed......it progresses as the day goes on. Other times the minute I get out of bed I know it's going to be a bad one.

I am really struggling to accept that someone who has never suffered headaches and migraine could just wake up one day and be so severely affected - I am barely functioning. I can understand a previous migraine sufferer evolving from episodic to chronic but for this to happen out of the blue? Mind boggling!!
Thanks so much for your help an support

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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2017, 12:27:49 AM »

Elizabethrose despite my very longwinded post above I forgot to answer your question about how many days are actually migraine days. To be honest it's hard to say - I have not had any pain free days since 14th Sept last year it's literally been a constant headache which is either dull and blunted or an intense pressure feeling - both types are accompanied by dizziness - not spinning sensation but more like a drunk dizzy feeling accompanied by brain fog and difficulty concentrating. The worse days are just random - sometimes at my period but other times it's just random - last month days 14, 15, 20 and 21 and this month Day 2 and Day 6 were awful. My least worst time so far has been on Gabapentin 700mg daily - pain was bearable but not completely gone, dizziness was minimal but bladder discomfort was constant.
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Elizabethrose

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2017, 09:32:58 AM »

I feel so sorry for you sweetheart, what an absolute nightmare! If it's any consolation to you, this will stop, menstrual migraines do.

I'm completely familiar with all you've tried and the neurologist has done what neurologists do. Beta-blockers are used very successfully to manage the severity and frequency of migraine, as is Amitriptyline, which they know has an affect on serotonin, which is considered to play a part in the migraine process. Gabapentin is also very commonly prescribed to treat migraine along with other anticonvulsants: I tried Topiramate. Interestingly, dizziness, lightheadedness, tiredness drowsiness, blurred vision, coordination problems, frequent urination, urinary retention and cystitis are known side effects of Gabapentin. Could this therefore account for your bladder discomfort and spaced out feeling? As far as I know all of the anticonvulsants have wide ranging side effects, which can be more difficult to handle than the symptoms they are treating but saying that, we are all different. I reacted very violently to Topiramate but there is another member on this site (it might be Rockhopper??) who uses it successfully. Incidentally, Topiramate caused me hair loss.

Let's talk about how migraines manifest themselves. Pure menstrual migraine are classified as only occurring between -2 +3 days of a menstrual cycle and at no other time, these are apparently the most difficult to treat, they are usually without aura. Menstrual migraines are those triggered hormonally at any time of the cycle. I started with pure menstrual migraine at the start of peri but they gradually morphed, as migraines tend to do and started occurring at every change in hormone level.  You have talked about how your migraines differ, how they evolve. Menstrual migraines have a terrible tendency to rebound i.e. they respond to meds or just naturally diminish but then leap in again and start to build. This could be what is happening to you.

Again you mentioned that you don't get the classic pulsing pain that is so commonly used to describe migraine. I think our responses to migraines are all very individual. I've never had one-sided pain, which is very much the norm: my pain is crushing everywhere. Your description of the changes in each migraine very much fit the description of how the migraine moves through its stages. Do you know about the stages of prodrome, aura, headache, resolution and postdrome? I will attach some links at the end. What you have described about how your migraines change exactly fits the stage transition. As far as not being trapped in a darkened room, that is something to be eternally thankful for despite the rubbish you are going through. Are you light sensitive though, do you feel more comfortable being away from direct sunlight or bright flashing light?

As far as triggers are concerned, it can be hugely difficult to identify them, especially if your main trigger is hormone change. This is where your diary is worth its weight in gold. We are all very different and triggers are very individual. The ones we so commonly hear about chocolate, cheese, caffeine don't apply to everyone. I have never reacted to any food but I don't drink alcohol. Just also to mention that migraines make us crave certain foods, often carbs or something sweet and then people mistakenly conclude that it is those foods that are the trigger. Keep that diary, record everything, it's invaluable! Another thing, migraineurs have to be creatures of habit. You have to go to bed and rise at regular hours. Too little sleep can trigger one, as can too much sleep. Regular meal times need to be set, a missed meal can trigger a migraine as well as not drinking regularly. Sometimes it can take a number of triggers to finally trigger the migraine therefore; you rise early to catch a flight, the airport is noisy and over bright, you don't eat breakfast at the time you would usually, you become dehydrated on the plane. It's often a combination of triggers that push you over the edge. The difficulty of menstrual migraine is that that trigger is sitting there waiting to bite you on the a—e almost constantly!! Triggers can't always be seen, strong smells can do it, flowers, perfume, heavily scented shampoos, smoke, pollution fumes, tree pollens.  High pressure is a common trigger and changes in weather can create havoc for migraineurs.

OK, so much information, let's see if I can get it into some semblance of order.

I think the most important thing for you to do, starting immediately, is to keep a really detailed diary. You mentioned you tried doing this between Jan and Apr but couldn't see any patterns but you then mentioned that last month's worst days were 14/15 and then 20/21.  There is a pattern here, oestrogen is at its height on day 13 and then immediately starts to fall: there is another rise in oestrogen at day 21/22 before it falls away again. Equally, progesterone starts to rise dramatically on day 14/15 reaching its peak on about day 21/22. Given that you thrived for many years with the cbc pill and then the mini pill, it seems possible to me that you may be someone who will do well with some form of HRT to control the migraine BUT you need to build a clear picture of what is happening first in order to give the docs a tool to work with. HRT was a disaster for me but I could never take any form of contraceptive pill, however HRT is used regularly to treat menstrual migraine and don't be told otherwise. You do need to see a specialist who is familiar with this though. What region of the country are you in? Perhaps post on here a request for recommendations in your neck of the woods.

Start a detailed daily diary. Include any symptom including visible hormonal changes; cervical mucus changes (are you aware of the normal changes in mucus in a reproductive cycle if not ask me? Cervical mucus tells us so much), breast swelling and pain, mood changes, headaches, dizziness, nausea. Include any events like lack of sleep, late nights, early or late rising, sudden weather changes, too much alcohol etc. Don't spend all day every day doing this but you'll become speedy at recording the info. This exercise is really the most important thing you can do for yourself at this moment.

I tried loads and loads of acute and prophylactic meds and the only two things that have helped me are Frovatriptan and Diclofenac suppositories.  None of the other Triptans worked for me. Frovatripan is recognised as the best acute treatment for menstrual migraine, which have the habit of rebounding. It can take a while to work, needs to be taken as early as possible after the headache pain starts but it has a long half-life so lasts longer preventing a rebound. The Diclofenac suppositories bypass the gut, which is in stasis in migraine preventing absorption, and are swiftly absorbed and work fast. So, at the very beginning of migraine headache, take a Frovatriptan and insert a Diclofenac suppository and sit back quietly and allow them to do their thing. Never run around when in migraine especially at the start. If you can abort them early you stand a chance that they won't rebound. Obviously I'm not a doctor or your doctor Mav, you need to discuss this with your specialists but Profs MacGregor and Goadsby recommend this. Triptans can't be taken if you have high blood pressure and can only be taken so many days a month but if you can stop the rebounds by medicating efficiently it may reduce the frequency and intensity for you.

Blimey, sorry, this is a bit of a tome! Everything I have discovered is through personal experience, through consulting with specialists and endless reading and researching but as I say I am not an expert. Read as much as you can and always prepare yourself with backed up information when presenting with a specialist. Do not under any circumstances be persuaded to have ovarian surgery without proper research, speak to me if it's suggested and I'll point you in the right direction.

I'm going to attach a link to the Migraine Trust. It's an excellent source of migraine info and if you are not aware of it I would definitely recommend a read. One of the best things we can do for ourselves is to understand what is happening because whilst we may not be able to do very much, it creates less anxiety as we feel more in control.

https://www.migrainetrust.org

Good luck Mav, I hope this was of some use. Do please ask anything at all you need to. xx
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Elizabethrose

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2017, 10:36:47 AM »

Sorry Mav, wanted to also suggest mefenamic acid to you for your painful periods. Have you ever been prescribed it? It's an NSAID that seems to successfully work on pelvic pain. I was prescribed it as a young teenager suffering from shocking period pain, at my mother's insistence. The brand name then was Ponstan. I insisted my daughter was also prescribed it for her serious period pain. It sometimes takes a couple of doses before it works but it's utterly brilliant stuff, they prescribe it after pelvic surgery. If you do decide on the diclofenac route though, you won't be ably to combine the two as they are both NSAIDs. x
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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2017, 12:39:20 PM »

Elizabethrose you are so knowledgeable - thank you for all the information it is truly invaluable. I went to see a female GP this morning and basically she was useless! Her opinion is that my cycle has not deviated enough and given that I do not have hot flushes or night sweats then HRT is not an option for me - she also said that my Estrogen levels are fine - they are not low enough to be causing this apparently. I am raging with myself that I didn't push for a gynae referral. She just kept saying "what does the neuro say?"
Looking back over my blood results from the last year I have noticed that my Day 21 progesterone has always been elevated eg 51 or 70 when the upper limit is supposed to be 50.6 and my recent Day 4 was 0.9 when the upper limit is 0.95 nmol/l. Could this be the smoking gun? Perhaps all along the mini pill was "regulating" that for me and when I came off that in Aug 2015 the agonising periods returned and then subsequently in Sept 2016 these awful headaches started.  I wonder is there any reason that I couldn't go back on the mini pill now to see if it stops the headaches?

Interestingly a recent day 4 Estrogen level was 191 and a day 4 Estrogen level in May 2016 was 316 pmol/l.
I am still keeping a diary but I will watch more closely on Day 13/14 and around Day 21 as well as at my period to see if any of those days are consistently worse. I think you are right about Gabapentin, the bladder discomfort now at 500mg daily is not as bad as at 800mg daily and so it will be interesting to see if that disappears as I titrate off it. 

I live in Ireland and so finding a gynae who is familiar with menstrual migraine will be challenging and even going privately I can expect a long waiting time for an appointment.  I am going to make some calls to see what I can find and then I will go to another GP in the practice and explore the option of the mini pill and a gynae referral.

My neuro also wants to try an occipital nerve block injection - have you ever tried that?
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Elizabethrose

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2017, 03:39:50 PM »

Mav if I were you I'd request a referral to a decent gynae. I have no idea how it works in Ireland, research the best in your area, do consider posting a new thread here asking for recommendations, and if you come up with someone you feel confident in ask for a specific referral to them.

This business of not being in peri and still late reproductive stage is very difficult to measure and I've been told by a couple of the best meno docs in the UK that it's almost impossible to measure it without doing massively frequent bloods as every woman is different despite everything that the Swan and other studies concluded. My mother's periods just stopped, really suddenly without warning. She had no peri or meno symptoms and then post meno silent migraine kicked in for about 18 months. We are all different and rarely text book!!

Either way maybe it's back to the mini pill for you, give it a go, if it does't work insist on trying HRT. The trouble with peri is that the hormones behave erratically which may be why some months are more difficult for you.

I decided against Botox and the occipital nerve block injection: I got the feeling that the docs didn't feel confident it was going to be successful for me, taking into consideration my history, and with respective success rates of 50% and 60% I wasn't confident either. To be honest I'd had enough, my journey had been a long one!. I'd tried so much and had been through so much and really felt confident that the docs were right that all would calm with a natural meno. I've made do with the Frovatriptan and the Diclofenac which have been my absolute life savers! I don't know anyone who decided to try either to advise you further with that.

My advice would be to start researching, check out the medical papers of docs such as Nick Panay, Anne MacGregor, Peter Goadsby. Search on using HRT in early stage peri and using it to treat migraine. I've read loads through the years so know that the papers and studies are out there. Once you have a case present it to your docs, they'd be mad not to heed the advice of such well considered and studied specialists. Alternatively if your diary starts to show real patterns, oestrogen can be used as a prophylactic just before a period. It didn't work for me but works for others. Check out the link I sent you for the Migraine Trust, there may well be info there that you could produce.

Good luck, don't give up the fight and do ask if I can offer any further advice xx

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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2017, 04:39:51 PM »

Thanks Elizabethrose for your sage advice....I have made the decision today to go back to the GP next week to ask about the mini pill for Frovatriptan and either Diclofenac or Menfenamic.  I will also insist on a gynae referral. In the meantime I will do some digging to try to find a gynae here who is familiar with treating hormonal migraine.  I have truly learned more from you in the last 24 hours than I have learned from any specialist in the last ten months and for that I am so grateful to you.

I am coming to the conclusion that I may not yet be in full blown peri because I don't have the classic symptoms of flashes, sweats and hugely irregular periods but rather what I am having is hormonal migraine (as opposed to pure menstrual migraine). If true, that may explain the constant daily headache which then drastically worsens at different times in my cycle.  On that basis I don't think any GP or indeed Neuro is equipped to deal with that and hopefully the solution will lie with a gynae for me.

I will also take your advice and look for the papers written by the experts you mentioned.

Thank you so so much for your support
Mav
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Elizabethrose

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2017, 04:48:08 PM »

Mav I'm really happy to help you and so pleased that you now have a plan! My mantra is if we know what is happening to us, even if there is no cure, it is far easier to deal with it. Call me a control freak!!

I send you all good wishes and every success, do let us know how you get along x
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Mav196

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Re: Is this Peri? + Chronic Migraine - am in despair....
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2017, 11:43:04 PM »

Thanks Elizabethrose and if you don't mind could I ask you one more question.....when you were in the worst of this did you have headache-free days but some days were migraine days or like me did you have a headache every day with some days being way worse (migraine days)? From what I now understand, pure menstrual migraine occurs around menstruation whereas menstrual migraine occurs both at menstruation as well as on other days with hormonal fluctuations. However I haven't yet come across anything which talks about hormones causing a daily headache and migraine. My neuro says hormonal fluctuations are to blame for it all but the Endocrinologist said if hormones are to blame then she would expect the headache to ebb and flow with the hormones eg she would expect the headache to occur on certain days but that should be followed by headache free days which is not happening in my case. Perhaps the answer to that is a gynae would be better at understanding peri? Aargh it's so frustrating.....I would truly love to lock a gynae, an endo and a neuro into a room and not let them out until they can agree on an answer and an effective solution!! I guess I have been watching too much Grey's Anatomy  8)
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