Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Freckles]

Tempest, I dread to think what sort of state I'd be in by now if hadn't found Studd and gone onto his treatment regime! My NHS consultations were appalling. 
Noheroicsplease- I use a tiny (less than pea size) bit of Testim gel daily together with Utrogestan progesterone for half the dosage and half the time than suggested in the NHS guidelines (100 mg a day for seven days) as well as three pumps of Estrogel and they all work well together, plus Vit D. Just as well I'm on that dose of progesterone as I'm progesterone sensitive/intolerant and I simply wouldn't be able to cope with the heavy NHS suggested dosage- it's too much, for too long,IMO.  Professor Studd did not say anything about any issues using Testim and Utrogestan.  As he tends to prescribe this regime (or variations of it) to most of the woman he sees, I figure he knows his stuff!

[CLKD]

Crikey - whoever stated 'will look like a man' is on a different Planet!  ALL my maternal relatives including my Mum never mentioned HRT.  Mum is now 90, walking 2/3 miles weekly, keeps a tidy garden of nearly an acre with the help of 2 men who mow the lawns.  Her skin is soft.  Her hair soft.  She has no medication other than the occasional Paracetamol.  She would be and actually I am, highly offended at this statement!  I'll be having a closer look at my non-HRT friends ......... and as an aside, Himself doesn't look like an old man either and he certainly ain't on any medication!

[CLKD]

which is what happens to most women post-menopause who do not take HRT (have you noticed that many older women look like men?)

 

[edelweiss]

Hi Noheroics. to answer your question, Studd sometimes prescribes oestragel, testim and synthetic progesterone (Provera) instead of utrogestan. He did for me cos I didn't get a bleed after 7 days utro, so switched to Provera 5mg instead which is synthetic.  Hope this helps. This was when the regime was working for me of course xxx

[edelweiss]

p.s. Wrensong, not at all! We all love your posts xxx

[nearly50]

Wow, just wanted to add to the people with older relatives who didn't take hrt but who have stayed feminine looking. Hrt isn't for everyone and I hate the thought of women coming on here thinking it will solve their problems and is necessary for everyone. In my non scientific mind, all the women in my family have been affected by having too much oestregen at times during peri, and have found things much easier once hormones have settled down.

What works for one woman may not work for another, surely that's the message we should learn from this forum

[Tempest]

Bless your heart, CLKD!

This is especially hurtful to you and other ladies here as I know you couldn't take systemic HRT (correct me if I'm wrong) - and we do have other ladies here who are recovering right now from estrogen positive cancers too, and they certainly don't need to be reading things like this!

Sending hugs your way (and hoorah for your lovely Mum)! xxxxx

[Mbrown001]

Nothing to do with what you posted Wrensong....

I think none of our mothers have become masculine. I have very fond memories of a good few great aunts who were the sweetest of old ladies. The smell of lavender and Coty's powder spring to mind.
Not a masculine one amongst them.

Mrs Brown

[edelweiss]

It really upset and hurt me too. I have no choice and I don't want to think that I am going to become more masculine - it's bad enough as it is xxx

[nearly50]

It really upset and hurt me too. I have no choice and I don't want to think that I am going to become more masculine - it's bad enough as it is xxx

You won't become more masculine and remember only a small proportion of women end up taking hrt, most don't . Try to put it out of your mind. 

[Hurdity]

Ooer ouch!

I had no idea that what was intended as a light-hearted aside in my response to Wrensong – would be so misconstrued and so incorrectly reported.

edelweiss - I apologise if you have perceived that what I have said is hurtful to you - hopefully you will see that this was not my intention!

Firstly my post was for Wrensong – it was lengthy and was intended to try to help her with her many queries – I did apologise at the end that it was a bit disjointed as I wrote things as they occurred to me. Posts like this take some time to think about and to write, so I make no apologies for not spending hours editing each post so that it is absolutely clear – I just do my best to help if I can.

I will explain what I meant in a minute – but what a pity that so many of you read what I wrote as “many” and changed it to “most”  or “will”. Babyjane you actually summarised what I said incorrectly and put it in quotes!!  Telling me I am unwise to make generalised statements. The generalised statement you talk about was an observation which I am entitled to make!!! And why on earth are you all talking about your mothers and aunts?! Heavens!! I did not and never would say that all older women will look like men if they don't take HRT.

Since you are all so interested in this topic I will explain what I meant.  My comments related to Wrensong's question about using testosterone in addition to her current HRT (Evorel conti – oestrogen and norethisterone). It is generally accepted by gynaecologists that it is important to supplement oestrogen first to adequate levels before testosterone ( for obvious reasons). If you are post-menopausal and supplement testosterone while oestrogen levels are still low – then you could be at risk from becoming relatively dominant in testosterone with resultant androgenic effects.

Freckles I did not and never would say that testosterone supplementation  per se (on top of an adequate oestrogen/progesterone regime) at the right dose ( within physiological range) would cause women to develop male characteristics.

It is well established that after menopause oestrogen levels drop massively and permanently  in a short space of time to a fraction of their former values. It is also well established that testosterone levels decline mostly fairly steadily but not in the same dramatic way as oestrogen ( excepting surgical menopause ). Therefore women become relatively more testosterone dominant during at least part of the post-menopausal period  – this has been written about – and is responsible for the development of androgenic characteristics such as facial hair, deepening voice etc.  I would presume that the extent to which this is apparent would vary greatly amongst women – just as our levels of all hormones vary – and that for some (such as those whose oestrogen levels dropped very low) this might be more apparent. I know of no studies ( but I haven't searched) which actually measure this – but the biological principle is there.  As an aside, in addition to the facial hair and deepening voices,  I had noticed ( as an observation – not a scientific study) that  I have seen many older women ( not most!!!) who do look more masculine and I wondered why this was (I have no idea whether they take HRT or not). This was certainly intended as a non-judgmental comment  – but just wondering why, and thinking that the known relative T dominance could be an explanation. If you add HRT in the form of oestrogen you will surely lessen the impact of this relative dominance to some extent? Of course this does not mean to say that we would all turn into men if we don't take HRT - (and I never said this!) – but the biological facts of our hormonal changes remain. We all change as we age and the most important thing is to stay as healthy as we possibly can in whatever way is best – with diet, exercise lifestyle, and HRT may play a part.

The main point of my comment was that you would not want to intentionally take more testosterone than needed without sufficient oestrogen because of the potential androgenic effects – especially as these may have a tendency to occur post-menopausally anyway.

The other point I made and which was posed as an open question has not been answered – which is what happens if you add testosterone to an HRT regime which already consist of a testosterone derived progestogen such as norethisterone or levonorgestrel? I thought it was a question worth asking and asking an expert gynae – ideally hoping for an evidence based response.

Remember this is an area of hormone replacement that has been studied very little in women and there are no long term studies into safety nor different dosing nor with different HRT regimes. It is a new area and with the (welcome) provision in the NICE Guidelines is being used more frequently so although we all want to reap the benefits – I feel it is important to be wary and especially as many GPs have insufficient understanding!

I make no apology for rambling and giving my thoughts on the forum - but I am sorry that some women seem to have been upset because they have been misconstrued and at times misquoted.

As for your comments Freckles – of course you will want to let people know about the regime that has worked for you, but it is really necessary to put down all other contributors of this forum and warn off other members because you think they are unqualified or untrained? You know nothing about the qualifications and background of anyone who posts here unless they have volunteered this information or unless you know them personally in real life. In any case, whatever our background most of us do not reveal it, and the forum rules/agreement state that we are all by default non-medical professionals. Further that nothing which is posted on here is intended to be a replacement for medical advice – of which many of us remind members frequently. There would be no point in having this forum if members did not post – the mixture of advice, information, subjective observation and support – which most members do very well. It is an insult to most members and the time and effort put into these varied posts to suggest that taking anyone's advice is “dodgy”. Many members have been helped greatly by many other members who give freely of their time to give advice, information and pointers. If any of this was out of line – then Dr Currie would intervene as she does occasionally.

It has taken me over an hour to write this and I would rather have spent the time answering the many posts and queries posed by other members. I normally ignore all these ( sadly becoming all too frequent) digs – but I had to respond to this.

Wrensong - apologies if my comments intended to help you ( with a bit of an aside!) have led to your genuine queries and the topic being derailed.

Hurdity

[peri]

Well said Hurdity. I've watched in bemused amazement as this topic has spiralled out of control.  Hopefully, that clears up any misunderstandings x

[Tempest]

Nope. 'Many' is still a generalisation and I can't see how it was a 'lighthearted aside' to Wrensong. This is an OPEN FORUM and anyone can read posts here.

We have ladies here, as I have said, who are recovering from estrogen positive cancers. They can't use HRT. They are entitled to be here - this forum is called 'MENOPAUSE matters', not 'HRT Matters'. Anything that even remotely suggests that these women, or any woman, may end up masculinised if they don't take HRT is being very insensitive.

There is nothing to be 'bemused' about, Peri. We need to be kind to all members and respect that some are dealing with difficult times with health issues and that not all can take HRT, and that they may be sensitive to comments such as these - 'lighthearted' or not.

[edelweiss]

Wishing everyone a good and restful night, and hope all of us get to be healthy, happy and content soon.
Special love and good luck tomorrow Tempest. Be thinking of you.
Love, xxx

[Freckles]

Interesting reply Hurdity, to say the least.
Pleased to read it some time after I originally posted, so I do appreciate the fact  you took time to consider your response
First, to clarify, I have NOT "put down all other contributors because you think they are untrained or qualified".
I simply object to (some) regular posters who appear to be keen to present as being clinical experts, especially with high levels of misleading  (subjective) information
It's the equivalent of the pub/backroom lawyer. 
It is always helpful to hear of others poster's views, comments and experiences, whether similar to mine or not.
I do, however, have problems with posters on MM who cite very authoritive global comments and opinions about the efficacy and use of HRT treatments regimes or otherwise, whether obtained via the NHS or privately. without being medically qualified to do so.
I have ever only cited my personal experiences, which I hope is useful for women reading this site and  for them to consider their personal options.
I note, however, that you kindly,and frequently, very willing offer extensive  advice, your non clinical opinion, and  have done for some time about HRT treatment regimes.
Some individuals 'may' inadvertently  think you are either medically qualified to offer such advice, as you seem to present your views with such conviction?
You wouldn't want possible legal action to ensure after all, so maybe for your own sake make it clear in future posts you make you aren't clinically qualified to comment?
I only mention that  as a friend recently successfully sued a similar online poster (actually the forum) on a menopause forum in the US.  The laws are a bit different there but seem to apply equally  here in the UK.
There is a HUGE difference between posting advice, observations, personal experiences and then offering clinical suggestions  which borders on the line of presenting being an "expert".
I'm sure it's most likely the case that you didn't  intended your past posts to be construed  that your opinion is an authoritative one?
And no doubt you will be keen to make that clear to other posters, in  case they misconstrue  your opinion as being clinically reliable and valid.
Yes, of course, I do consider it "dodgy" to accept clinical advice from a stranger or strangers from an internet forum.
Who wouldn't? Doh?!
I just "warn off other members because they you think they are unqualified or untrained"?
No, I'm just politely warning other posters not to accept your (and some others)  very detailed posts about clinical treatments/regimes to adhere to, crosses the boundary between personal experiences  and clinical advice that's all.
Most posters on MM seem to be  able to distinguish the difference.
As is often the case on here, what I was saying has been mis-quoted
So read around ladies (and gents) here and Goggle for information. the whole issue of HRT can (initially) be over whelming.

Hurdity, if you feel that you are subject of "too frequent digs" then, maybe ,as a qualified Chartered Scientist, Chartered Psychologist, Consultant Clinical Psychologist in real life, you might take some time out to think about the content and nature of your posts  and why so many people object to them, both off and online?

Just a suggestion.

Hope the above clarifies your misperception of my post.

Freckles x