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[GypsyRoseLee]

Haven't been around much as wanted to give Annie Evans regime (2 sachets of sandrena gel + 100mg of Utro for 7 days) chance to work, without me doing my usual stressing on here.

Well, I followed her regime for 2 months, though never got chance to use Utro as my own natural period started both months, before I had chance to use Utro. Dr Annie was unconcerned about this.

Well, out of the 2 months on her regime I only had a total of FOUR good/normal days + a couple of good/normal evenings. Oddly those 4 good days were just before my period started, but then good mood crashed soon as I started to bleed.

All the rest of the time I was more depressed and more anxious than I have ever been. Far worse, even, than when I had severe PND. My insomnia was worse. I was so distraught my GP put me in touch with our Crisis Team and I started ADs 5 weeks ago, but no sign of them working yet.

So 2 weeks ago I went to see Prof Studd, and the less said about his customer service the better. Just dreadful. But he started me on 3 pumps of oestrogel + testim, and then to start 100mg of Utro for 7 days, but not until June 1st. He wasn't remotely bothered I'd not taken progesterone for nearly 3 months. His blood test said my oestrogen level was 744 and that was day 15 of my cycle. When I last had my bloods done at Xmas on day 21 my oestrogen was 305.

But I am getting worse. Mood incredibly low and anxiety worse. Very dark thoughts. This can't be right that after nearly 3 months on the best HRT available I am feeling near suicidal?

I have never had any hot flushes. Never suffered with vaginal dryness. Periods have always stayed regular, though much lighter. Even on 3 pumps of oestrogel for the last 2 weeks, my period has started today.

All those months last year, all the HRT I tried never helped my depression or anxiety, but at least I still got quite a few good days each month.

That no longer happens.

Could it be that the higher oestrogen I have been on from Evans and Studd is actually making my anxiety and depression worse? Exacerbating it to the point that my ADs aren't touching it, despite an increase in dose.

Can this happen, if you take high dose oestrogen for nearly 3 months, when actually your body doesn't need it? It just seems very coincidental?

Admittedly I reacted badly to the combi tabs on Femoston in Jan and Feb, so when I saw Dr Annie at the start of March I was still reeling from that experience, and already feeling very low and anxious.

But I have never picked up since then. And I am in fact much worse. I don't think  I could feel worse.

[MIS71MUM]

Hello

Been wondering have you been doing - been checking for your posts.  Haven't got time to reply properly but wanted to say "Hi" and will reply later.

All the best

M

[Niamh]

Hi GRL I'm sorry to hear things are still so difficult for you. Did Dr Annie have a view on this before you moved to Studd? I know Studd will advise a good 3 months on his regime to assess properly how you're getting on.....I know it's taken me a good 4/5 months to really settle on his prescription and I've had lots of issues along the way and had to tweak here and there. Even now I can feel I have low level anxiety and depression rumbling in the background whereas I felt fab a week ago but I just try to go with it but what you're experiencing is far from low level

I certainly found 3 pumps too high for me and I got anxiety, depression, wired, insomnia etc from it and I'm fine on 2 sometimes I think I could do with a bit more but I've tried 3 twice and both times it feels too much. You could try 2 pumps but I would absolutely recommend gritting your teeth and sticking with it for a good 3 months at least.

I had lots of times where I thought this is pointless/not working etc but I also was scared of how I felt before...I just kept going but only turned a corner very recently.

It's v tough I wish I could offer more guidance X

[MIS71MUM]

Sorry - have more time now.

Did Prof Studd suggest what you were suffering from?  Did he say PMDD? or hormonal depression?

I thought that when your periods starts without using the Utrogestan, it means you have too much oestrogen.  I could be wrong though.  You could always utilise the help of the Crisis Team whilst getting through this...

You know when you did your pill diaries, could you not review those to see which preparation was best for you. ie was it always the progesterone phase or could it have been a build up of too much oestrogen?

Sorry not much help but didn't want to not offer some support.

[pepperminty]

Hi GRL,

I haven't got time for a long reply at the moment. Just wanted to say  poor you, how dreadful feeling so low .

It is Nye on impossible thinking rationally when you are in such a way. just see my posts when I TOOK THE PILL ! I couldn't function at all.

I am not a doctor , but with all the changes in meds this year it must be very difficult to see what is and isn't working.

Make sure you tell someone how you are feeling whether it be the Samaritans, here or a friend etc. DO NOT feel alone because you aren't. Things never stay the same, there is always light at the end of the tunnel, except some peoples tunnels are longer than others and fraught with various obstacles. And boy are some peoples obstacles on the unfortunately large side!

You are marvellously strong and intelligent and there will be a way through and you may not know it now but you will be ok.

Take care.

PM

[CLKD]

Maybe you are clinically depressed? Add to that hormonal fluctuations ………..

[dangermouse]

it does all point to high oestrogen, particularly as you felt better just before your period when natural progesterone would have been higher. Also the fact you still have regular periods suggests you are more in the oestrogen surging up and down phase where it affect your adrenals.

My GP told me HRT couldn't help me in this phase as the surges are too strong but I suspect there are many here where they have found it helped but may be dependent on their level of surges. Perhaps it would be best to take a break from the HRT to see if this relieves you at all. I'm not sure if oestrogen builds up in the system and affects GABA, I'm certainly not experiencing any build up of either hormone taking the pill back to back, but not sure about natural oestrogen as I have heard that synthetics are more stable and specific, so may not bounce about affecting other hormones (e.g. serotonin), as our natural ones, and possibly the bio-identicals, do.

If you're over-stimulated with the oestrogen then it could be draining your serotonin more quickly, hence the ADs will be barely touching the sides. By stopping the HRT but carrying on with the ADs at least you can then see more clearly if they are of any help.

Well done for giving the last lot a good old try, at least you're another 2 months closer to everything calming down.

[Milamam]

I agree with the others it sounds like too much estrogen , although 744 at mid cycle isnt too too much. I have had higher reading than that on day 21! Is this pmol/l, I presume?

Instead of fully stopping, as you are clearly perimeno, I would decrease to even 1 pump for a few days - if you feel better anxiety-wise, then the problem is excess E. Excess E makes me feel jittery and overwhelmed, but not depressed. You may feel depressed because you have tried a lot of solutions without a clear result. I would be desparate and very depressed!

I also wanted to agree with the others that you are clearly in times of extreme fluctuations where your natural estrogen might be higher than normal. This is so common in peri (before everything levels out). The fact is you are still menstruating regularly. So the question is to balance things out rather that what is missing and what us in excess. What will happen if you try Utro this month? In addition to stimulating the womb to shred, progesterone ( and Utro) have rather calming effects on the body and help better sleep. It will also balance out the excess estrogen if any. Just my humble thoughts although I am not an expert  at all.
Hang on there, there will be a solution soon, I am sure!

Milamam
O

[Mary G]

GRL, I am so sorry to hear that you are feeling like this.  I think you should get straight on to Professor Studd's office and tell his secretary exactly how you feel and how severely depressed you are.  Lay it on thick to force a response.

I agree with Niamh and think you ought to consider dropping to 2 pumps of gel everyday but split the dose i.e. 1 pump every 12 hours.  This is what I have been doing for a while and it is working very well.

Try the Studd regime for a few months but if it still doesn't work, then I think your best option would be a full hysterectomy including ovaries.  It would appear that your hormones are erratic (hence the PND?) and giving you spikes and the only way to rid yourself of this is to get shot of your ovaries and then you can pump in the hormones you actually need without having to worry about your own hormones coming along and spoiling the party.  Obviously with a full hysterectomy you will no longer need progesterone which is great.  Why not run this past Prof Studd and get his opinion.

I am sorry this is so drastic but I just can't think of any other options.  I really do hope the Studd (2 pump) regime works and it doesn't come to this. 

[MIS71MUM]

These things got me through where you are;

1 Eat regularly, every 3 hours - very important as will cause anxious feelings when hungry
2 Drink 2 litres of water every day - important to rehydrate the brain
3 Take a multi vit with hugh strenghth Vit B and magnesium to repair the nervous system
4 Do something nice every day - read with the kids, eat chocolate then look forward to that moment each day

I agree with Mary G - get back on the phone or get hubby to do it and get some urgent help.

Must go back to work now - but i'm really worried about you 

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you so much for all your replies, very interesting. I am digesting them slowly.

In my heart of hearts I feel I am overloaded with oestrogen. Or at least haven't opposed it with enough progesterone.

Because something else I have just thought of. After reacting badly (after only taking 4 of them) to the combi tabs in Femoston 2/10 back in mid February, I stopped taking them. Instead I just applied a 50mg patch for the next 3 weeks until I saw Dr Annie (and my own period started 3 days after seeing her).

So, basically since the 2nd week in February (when I only took 4 combi tabs) I haven't taken any synthetic progesterone or any Utrogestan. So, thinking about it, actually since mid JANUARY, I have only had 4 combi tabs containing some progesterone!

And it is since those 4 combi tabs in mid February that suddenly my depression and anxiety massively increased.

I just don't feel that can be a coincidence?

[CLKD]

I can't remember: sorry : whether you have tried anti-depressant medication or something to counteract anxiety? 

[GypsyRoseLee]

Hi CLKD

Yes, I have been on Trazadone for over 5 weeks, dose was upped to 200mg a few days ago. I also started Quetiapine last week, which is meant to be excellent for anxiety.

But they don't seem to be having any effect, except for better sleep. And I wonder if this is because I keep putting too much oestrogen in my system every day, causing high anxiety + depression, and so cancelling out the help from the ADs?

[coldethyl]

So sorry that you seem to be running from one bad place to the next at the minute. I know noting about the hormonal side but do wonder if you might not be better just coming off the HRT for a few months at least to see what symptoms are your own and what are side effects of the oestrogen. I notice that you say you are on antidepressants but that after 5 weeks you don't feel that they are helping much - my suggestion would be to ask for a referral to a psychiatrist who can discuss treatments not available to your GP. It may be that you need a more tailored drug regime than what your doctor can offer. It is easy to blame anxiety and depression on hormones and of course, it may be that, but let's not forget than men get similar symptoms and can't blame hormonal fluctuations in quite the same way. I don't know how bleak you feel or how bad it it is, or whether it is cyclical but a psychiatric evaluation would look at this and might help you identify triggers and possible solutions. I believe that anti-psychotic medication can be used off licence under psychiatrist supervision in cases of intractable depression and anxiety and this might be an option xx

[coldethyl]

I notice that you have just started Quetapine so it seems that your doctor is thinking along similar lines to me!