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[Dandelion]

This post is to just get people's views.
My counsellor is in her 70's now and she said she still gets hot flushes.
I would hate that. I know a woman who started peri at age 40, she is 53 now, and still flushes bad as ever. Once she could not get hold of her medication and had use a massive fan.
I got mine at 42, but even though it's been 8 years, five of them not on HRT as I mistakenly put my peri symptoms down to other stuff, I would like to think that now I have been through the worst of it.

Mine just have been pretty bad, because it too several trials with evorel at different doses, and none of them were enough to take away the symptoms.

I have a question. My periods were still happening, right upto when I got HRT, yet why would I need such a high dose patch to kill my symptoms?
I was only in peri, and the worst of the flushes happen after the periods have stopped (if I need correction this, please do, I am very sure, but not completely sure)

I once read a study but I lost the link, because I had to do a fresh windows rescue, and I lost loads of data, it was good, it said, women who start flushing before their periods end, are the women who will go on to have horrible symptoms which last a long time, so the change for them will be difficult.
It didn't say how bad, or how long, but I know women who have had flushes for over thirteen years, and my counsellor said she also got them for a lot of years, ino her sixties.

I guess for women who only have slight flushes and then slightly worser when their period stops can feel a bit more hope, if the symptoms are slight, but I am pretty worried about me.

I sailed through my menstrual periods, not perfect, but compared to those around me, I was extremely lucky.
I have no children.

The flushes I was getting while still having periods must have been bad enough to warrant needing 100mcg patches at only age 48.

I know that women take patches even if they don't get flushes, because other symptons can be really bad. My IBS was terrible. I couldn't leave the house after feeling empty, and it took several visits to the loo to achieve this, and there was risk of outside accidenets if I did not follow this new law that my bowl had laid down.

What happens to women who continue to have hot flushes and other unbearable symptoms, and their doctor orders them off hrt due to the risks (that I don't even believe are that big)
If it were me in that situation, unless there was a solid medical reason why hrt would not be good for me, I think the risks are blown out of prortion and I want oestrogen for the rest of my life, so if the doc was adamant, I try one more doctor, as I would be too stressed out by any more, and they might be too, and then i would buy my own.
I used 50mcg private bought when the doc would only give me 25mc and my gut and what i read here about starting hrt patches told  me 25 wouldnt touch my symptoms.
So, strong symptoms, young age, wonder what future holds, I hope I am not one of those unlucky women who flush for years and if anyone has anymore info on peri women who get flushes while still having periods that don't look like they're going to stop anytime soon,  mine just got irregular in 2 -6-7 week cycle etc.

[Dorothy]

Everyone is so different, I don't think any woman can know how bad/how long peri will be for her until she's been through it.  I've read that women who have worse times during periods have easier times during peri and I've also read the opposite.  I've also been told that women who start periods late are the ones who finish early, but I started periods just before 13 and started peri at 35. 

The one thing everyone seems agreed on is that stress makes it worse, so I try to take a day at a time and not think about whether my personal circumstances mean I am likely to suffer more in future.  Because the more I worry, the more I am likely to have a hard time!

[Lizab]

Peri was first mentioned to me at age 37 ago after a long spell of abnormal bleeding. I had hot flushes almost every day, around 10-11 am, since I was 30. I never thought much of them, other than they were annoying sometimes. At 38, after I'd begun missing periods, my flushes became extreme, like my God I'm having a heart attack and it's so hot if I don't remove all my clothes and lie down on the cool ground I may faint. I'm 39 now and not officially post-menopausal, so I don't know how long it'll last, and my symptoms have been terrible recently. I do wonder if the length of it all relates to how sensitive each individual is to it. Like you, I guess I started long ago, but never linked it to the peri. If my symptoms last until age 45, I guess I could say I went through it for 15 years. But if I only count from when my periods began to skip and the flushes became unbearable, my time would be much shorter. I don't know how recently the STRAW standards came into use, but maybe with these standards the next generation of women will have a better measurable timeline. We get to go through it blind!

[GypsyRoseLee]

Up until recently I have always dated my peri menopause starting in Nov 2013, because that's when my PMS started staying ALL month long, and with it came awful stints of anxiety.

But, actually when I think about it, I had a couple of 'funny turns' back in 2011 and 2012, where I became inordinately upset and anxious about stuff, and they lasted several days, then my period started and the anxiety and upset just faded away, and I barely rembered it.

Also my periods had been getting much lighter, and only lasting 2-3 days as far back as 2012, too.

I can't make much sense of the STRAW guidelines, so do I date my peri menopause from 2011 or 2012?

[newbeginnings]

I was offered a hysterectomy when I was 32 because of several months of severely heavy bleeding. I had a d and c and it did eventually stop.  I didn't have the op. I'm 55 now and I feel very much that the problems I've had with mental health over the years, chronic fatigue and fibromyalgia were actually due to serious hormonal imbalances. I had post natal depression twice in my early 20's.
So I'd consider myself to have been in peri menopause for about 15 years if that is even possible. Fir the first time ever I'm beginning to feel better on hrt.

[Lizab]

GRL, I think that's the problem with trying to date it all. The way I understand it, you start it when your cycle length changes by more than 7 days, like a 28 day cycle becomes 21 days (or maybe becomes longer to 35 days?). Then the late peri begins when you skip cycles. But even then, I've heard some women are regular right up until their periods disappear, with no indication of changes. I think the idea is that changes in your flow or PMS changes or even hot flushes, while they certainly have something to do with decline in fertility, aren't something reliable for dating the whole transition, as we all have different sensitivities to take notice or report those symptoms. If I ever had light cycles, I couldn't tell you, as that wouldn't have been bothersome to me and I wouldn't have taken notice. Cycle lengths are more definitive and that's where they pull the average time lines from. My mild flushes began at 30, but my cycles didn't change until 33 or 34, when they changed to about 19 to 21 days. I think, according to STRAW, my peri would have begun then. I don't know aboit women who've had hysterectomy or ablation, I guess symptoms is still the best way to guess for them?

[Lizab]

Anyway, that was slightly off topic, it looks like according to STRAW, the flushing is most likely in late transition (when periods are skipping, however long that may last) to about 5 years post-meno. Obviously, there would be outliers, as many are symptomatic with still regular periods, but I'm placing my hope in the STRAW guidelines that I'll be "average" and won't suffer flushes beyond 5 years post-meno.

[CLKD]

I know that I have been lucky.  I was really pleased to see the back of my periods.  I started at the age of 11, from the 4th one the bleed was heavy and I suffered severe pain.  I went onto The Pill at the age of 17, took it for 11 years.  Was sterilised at that time.  Had BAD PMT in my mid-30s  .  NAPS gave good advice at that time.

My periods began to wan at the age of 43.  I finally stopped bleeding in 2002 but carried protection for 5 years.   I had a few months of 'flushing' at night after my bath.  Also the itchiness due to the drop of oestrogen: both insteps when I got into the bath, as well as across my shoulders/back.  That is still problematic at times.

Restless leg syndrome is cured for me by eating bananas daily.  Nurofen is my go-to pain relief.  I ought to do more exercise  ……….

[Dorothy]

I was offered a hysterectomy when I was 32 because of several months of severely heavy bleeding. I had a d and c and it did eventually stop.  I didn't have the op.

Interesting - I had a D&C age 32 for the same reason.  Never really got a satisfactory explanation for why it happened, but as I was told there was nothing abnormal there, I didn't worry about it.  But it is the reason why I remember getting the period fluctuations at 35 - because when they started getting extra heavy, I panicked it was coming back again and I'd have to have another op (the consultant had told me if I was 'lucky' I would hit the menopause before I needed another op, which left me with the idea it could easily happen again before 50)  But then I started getting light ones too so I stopped worrying.

Wondering now if the bleeding between age 31 and 32 was very early peri? 

[Meg]

Have severe doubts about ever getting `through' with menopause.  Just speaking from my own experience, I am now 61 and still suffering with hot flushes.   I have, I would say no tolerance towards hot temperatures, my brain must have lost the power to regulate in the temperature controlling way.  I would say that I had some mild flushing from about 48 but all of it ramped up when periods finished at fifty.  What the answers are to these problems faced by many of us, I am not sure at all.  The 2002 WHI study certainly threw up a lot of questions.  My doc has been pretty useless but she did tell me a long while back that for some women the flushes just go on.  A lot of women are offered and take antidepressants.  I also know that some take clonidine but that it does not work for some.  This is a huge area of women's well-being which does not get the research input that it deserves.

Meg

[Dana]

I was pretty oblivious to menopause until I hit 51. I knew my periods had gone a bit wacky, but apart from that nothing to really be concerned about.

At 51 though (in fact September 2010 - I remember the time well) all hell broke loose, and my periods completely stopped. After being a really good sleeper my entire life, I suddenly couldn't sleep at all. At first I still didn't have any idea it was meno. I was putting it down to different types of food or supplements, but it was the dreaded meno. So I never really seemed to "go through" peri. My hormones seemed to do a sudden nose-dive and I think I became fully post-meno there and then.

Now, almost 6 years later, insomnia is the thing I still fear the most. I think I could live with the hot flushes, as long as I could sleep, but without HRT I can't. However, with HRT comes all the progesterone crap I have to deal with. I never had any issues with my own progesterone, but in menopause it's a curse for me.

The only routine I seem to be able to deal with is a cycle of 4-6 weeks, but that also means I have to indefinitely deal with having periods. That's okay for now, at the age of nearly 57, but what happens in 10-15 years times, when I still may have meno insomnia as bad, and I'm still having to have periods.

The longer this goes on for me the two options that keep going around in my mind are a hysterectomy, but would a surgeon be prepared to do that simply because of HRT, or I may need to go off HRT altogther - and that thought of what the insomnia would be like terrifies me.

My GP mentioned a Mirena the other day when we were talking, but I shut that discussion down very quickly. Knowing my issues with any kind of prog, I definitely don't want something "permanent" shoved in there. At least with tablets it's only for a week or two.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Lizab thanks.

About 3 years ago, I did notice my cycle was shortening from a regular 28/29 days to more like 24/25 days. But not a 7 day difference at all.

As for hot flushes, my Mum never suffered a single one, despite being plunged into surgical menopause at 43 after a hysterectomy and not really bothering with HRT afterwards.

So far, I've not had a hot flush either.

[Hurdity]

Interesting thread Dandelion - and discussion.

This dating thing is impossible to determine I agree!

I think it was Briony recently who referred to Nick Panay's work ( I think) on pms to emphasis that what many women refer to as peri-menopause is in fact the time when pms gets worse - which according to the STRAW definitions is the late reproductive stage and when cycles get shorter ie as you were saying with yours GypsyRoseLee. Because it is all to do with fluctautions in oestrogen and progesterone it is no wonder that the symptoms (of pms and peri-menopause) are very similar - especially at first.

As I understand it if periods are still regular, the next stage is usually a shorter (but regular) cycle - while you are still fertile so this is not counted as peri from the medical point of vew - even though there are hormonal changes and from memory - "subtle changes on flow/length" so periods can get shorter/longer and lighter/heavier even though the cycle is regular and shorter.

I think the medical profession needs this definition (peri being the start of cycle varying by more or less than 7 days) because it is the only definitive point - otherwise as some of you have pointed out - you could start dating it from symptoms which vary so much. I think the official peri-menopause is the time when HRT should consistently work to improve symptoms. From women's experiences on here it is hit and miss in the late reproductive stage - when pms is worse and when unfortunately some women start to get flushes. I remember thinking peri-menopause was loosely the name given to about 10 years before menopause when there were some sort of changes - but of course that's too vague and if we are all using a different term it gets difficult.

As for knowing how long it's all going to last? We all need a crystal ball for that! All I know is that if I try to reduce oestrogen the flushes start to return. The interesting ( and potentially alarming) question is whether this would have happened whatever oestrogen dose I had started on when first going onto HRT. So - if I had started on 75 mcg patch instead of 50 mcg - would reducing to 50 mcg bring on the flushes - whereas on 50 mcg (approx) for the last 9 years - I don't get them. That's the only thing that worries me about higher doses - but it's no reason Dandelion not to have a high dose now - while you are still young!!! I sometimes wish I had started on a higher dose and perhaps I would have more energy now ( not that I'm complaining as I don't have bad symptoms!!!).

Anyway the main thing is, irrespective of definitions - we all want to try to do what gives us the best quality of life now and the minimal risk to our health - because that will reduce stress and improve our well-being, so that we end up actually being better!  The more I read the more I realise it is not all cut and dried and there is so much still to find out about all of this - and especially as we live longer and longer. I'd love to do so some observational research on something relevant to all of this.

Whather we have flushes when we stop HRT or not - once post-menopausal we stay that way and the flushes are our bodies reacting to a fall in oestrogen and the consequences of oestrogen deficiency will gradually become apparent - but we no longer have the fluctuations which is a blessed relief!

The timing of menarche vs menopause I think is a myth - I looked it up once and as far as I remember there is no correlation. I started late (14) and had not reached menopause at 53.5 (as far as I know - because I started HRT at almost 54).

Not sure if I've said anything useful there at all or if it is a particularly waffly ramble   

Enjoy your weekend girls if you can

Hurdity x