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Author Topic: What a difference a day makes? Take two.  (Read 21718 times)

skkb

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2016, 08:04:35 PM »

I agree MaryG although my doc has always been understanding I often end up telling him something he didn't know about meno/HRT and I've really looked after myself regarding type of HRT and dosage. This in turn though causes me the anxiety of "am I doing the right thing" syndrome especially when I get odd symptoms and just feel weird, fuzzy, not with it......as previously posted I'm now back on HRT having had a break for a year and waiting and waiting for things to improve, sadly they haven't ....my body loves estrogen and the sweats have subsided now after two weeks back on.....but I'm 65 and started meno at 52..... For some of us it's endless
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Briony

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2016, 09:02:46 PM »

Reading this has prompted me to have another look at all my results since starting treatment.

Before I suspected hormones I had blood tests at the dr's, in Nov 2011 my estrogen was 307 and testosterone 1.4

Fast forward to June 2014 when I first saw studd, it was 125 and my testosterone was 0.4
By Sep it had increased to 1001 and testosterone was 8.3 interestingly this was when I felt the best that I've ever felt while on HRT.
Since then my levels have dropped and stuck around 437-474 my testosterone also stayed around the 8 mark but at my last test had dropped to 2.2.

Oddly in April 2015 I had my implants and my estrogen dropped from 1001 to 438??
Since starting HRT 90% of the time I've used 3 or 4 pumps


Mary's so right about it not being an exact science. I find it interesting that on no HRT, my estriadol was 41 pmol (though FSH was normal).  Then a year later, on 100mcg patches it was 128 pmol. MY GP said 'this is normal - no action required' - but at 44 (age), I feel sure I could do with my levels being higher? Studd suggests that levels of 500-600 pmol are optimal?  :-\
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Niamh

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2016, 09:03:41 PM »

Some interesting stuff here. I definately agree with Mary about blood tests my ostrogen read about 180 when I first saw Studd and 250 at my 3 month check but I felt good on this. I had to drop from 3 pumps to 2 as 3 made me feel awful I think I'd be a wreck on blood tests of 600/800!! Lol I'm 41 and had PND and pmt but it seems I function well on perhaps 'lower' amounts. Just goes to show how it's not logical or scientific at all and see why Studd doesn't go by the blood tests.
GRL definately try each tweak for a month although the beauty of the gel is you can probably tell within 7/10 days and easily adjust!
Nx
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2016, 09:04:18 PM »

I've not heard of the connection between oestrogen and PMS? Can I ask what it is? I thought it was all to do with me not liking progesterone?

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Niamh

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2016, 09:07:35 PM »

Broiny maybe Studd suggest that on his website but I see him and he doesn't actually go by the bloodctests! Mine are much lower than this.

GLR don't know if it's my post which has made you tbink of pms and ostrogen?? My pms is definately prog related but too much ostrogen can give some pms symptoms, I got these when I was on 3 pumps but it did feel a bit different to my normal pmt but similar im terms of anxiety x
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Niamh

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #65 on: February 22, 2016, 09:09:21 PM »

GLR just to add if you look up ostrogen dominance there are similarities to pms but don't drive yourself mad with it! See Dr Annie ☺️X
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Briony

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #66 on: February 22, 2016, 09:15:31 PM »

I think what Studd means is that's the level required to suppress ovulation - the aim for someone with fluctuating hormone levels. With someone in menopause, it's different as your own estrogen isnt mucking around behind the scenes, so all you need is a top up. I think that's why so many of us in peri menopause have struggled with hrt. It's also the reasoning behind the birth control pill Qlaira.

This is from his website (two places) as what I've said above is a bit waffled!



As the ultimate cause of PMS is ovulation, it follows that the logical cure should be suppression of ovulation. Certainly this achieved by pregnancy, surgery or waiting for the menopause, but a more straightforward medical therapy should be considered.

There are now many studies showing that GnRH analogues remove the symptoms of PMS by suppressing ovulation and producing a medical menopause. An injection of Gonapeptyl, every month is ideal and 'add-back' HRT, will prevent vasomotor symptoms and bone demineralisation. The orthodox estrogen/progestogen preparations are useful but the PMS symptoms may recur with the cyclical progestogen. Livial seems to be an excellent alternative without bleeding or progestogenic side effects.

Ovulation can also be suppressed by moderately high dose transdermal oestrogens in the form of oestradiol patches or oestradiol gel. Appropriate doses would be a 200ugs oestradiol patch or 2 or 3 doses of oestrogel twice daily. Woman may occasionally feel a little worse in the first two weeks on this high dose, like an early pregnancy, but should be advised to continue as substantial benefit is almost certain if the diagnosis is correct. A longer term therapy would be a 75mgs estradiol implant inserted every 6 months. This like the patches and the gel will produce plasma estradiol levels of about 600pmol/L and abolish ovulation in most cases. However, women should be advised that this will not be used as contraception, as the appropriate tests have not yet been carried out.


Premenstrual syndrome is a common and sometimes severe group of cyclical symptoms with distressing physical and psychological symptoms that can seriously effect a woman's well being. These symptoms follow the hormonal changes (whatever they are-probably progesterone) that occur with and following ovulation. Therefore, these cyclical PMS type symptoms do not occur before puberty, after the menopause, during pregnancy, or after hysterectomy and bilateral salpingo oophorectomy. However, the typical cyclical symptoms do remain after a hysterectomy if the ovaries are conserved. Thus, menstruation is not a necessary feature for this condition and it would be more meaningful if the disorder was called the ovarian cycle syndrome (1).

In spite of frequent usage there is no evidence that progesterone is effective for treatment but there is ample evidence that progestogen makes the condition worse. Proven hormonal therapy for this condition is based upon suppression of ovulation. These are:

GnRH treatment over 3-6 months (2). This confirms the diagnosis and removes the symptoms but it is not appropriate for long term therapy without add back oestradiol and progestogen. The progestogen will reproduce the PMS symptoms as these patients are progestogen/progesterone intolerant.
Suppression of ovulation by transdermal oestrogens in the dose of 100µg or 200µg of oestradiol patch (3). Such patients also need cyclical progestogen for 7-10 days a month or insertion of a Mirena IUS.
Hormonal implants of oestradiol with the addition of testosterone (4) if necessary in the presence of loss of energy, loss of libido and depression. The same protection of the endometrium by progestogen tablets or a Mirena IUS is necessary.
Hysterectomy and salpingo oophorectomy with appropriate long term hormonal replacement therapy (5). In those rare patients with bleeding problems or progestogen side effects in spite of the use of a Mirena IUS.
The birth control pill, although it suppresses ovulation, is not usually effective because the progestogen component produces the PMS symptoms for most of the month rather than half of the month.
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Niamh

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #67 on: February 22, 2016, 09:37:15 PM »

Thanks Briony I think I'd read this before because interestingly he never talked about trying to suppress my own cycle even though I'm definately early peri. I use 2 pumps which surely can't be enoughto suppress things but ive settled on this now and dont seem to fluctuate or feel my own hormones in the background up to tricks!. Ive given up analysing this though and im just enjoying feeling well and heh he knows what he's doing so im just letting him work his magic!
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Briony

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2016, 09:52:35 PM »

Thanks Briony I think I'd read this before because interestingly he never talked about trying to suppress my own cycle even though I'm definately early peri. I use 2 pumps which surely can't be enoughto suppress things but ive settled on this now and dont seem to fluctuate or feel my own hormones in the background up to tricks!. Ive given up analysing this though and im just enjoying feeling well and heh he knows what he's doing so im just letting him work his magic!

I think that's the best way to go Niamh - if it works for you, then go for it. If this site has taught us anything, it's that we're all so different.

This is quite interesting to read (re PMS guidelines):

http://www.nickpanay.com/Papers%20pdf/Royal%20College%20of%20Obstetrians%20%20Gynaecologists%20PMS%20Guidelines.pdf
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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2016, 09:12:31 AM »

Hi Niahm

I was asking MaryG about the link between PMS and needing more oestrogen. She mentioned this in a post earlier on this thread, which intrigued me as I'd never heard that before?
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Clovie

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2016, 11:35:28 AM »

Interesting, as I too had wondered if I wasn't getting enough oestrogen  ???

I'd been on the 2mg Ellesste Solo oestrogen tablets for 3 years, and used to do OK. As the last few months have gone on my moods have gone down so badly I wondered if my own oestrogen was starting to drop lower. (I'm 52 now)
I have recently swapped to 3 pumps of oestrogel instead of tablets and my mood has been very much improved (but I am also taking a tiny dose of amitriptyline as well, only 25mg so hardly effective on mood dysfunction at that dose, and in any case I've only been on it a week and a half)
I'm inclined to favour the upping of my oestrogen - but what the heck - I'm no doctor, I'm just ploughing through this fog of perimenopause clutching at straws, stabbing in the dark and slinging mud, if you sling enough mud some of it might stick!!  ;D

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GypsyRoseLee

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2016, 05:53:19 PM »

I'm so glad it's working for you Clovie.

Did you also get the awful anxiety when your moods started to drop a few months ago, too?
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Niamh

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2016, 06:16:36 PM »

I did GLR pre the hrt, I had a permanent knot in my stomach and ran on anxiety. I lost loads of weight. The combination of the ostrogel and utro has stopped the anxiety and lessened my pmt massively, sleep is finally getting much better. That anxiety is dreadful I feel so much more relaxed now I used to get in a state about so many things which don't bother me now :)x
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Hurdity

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2016, 06:37:23 PM »

Hi GypsyRoseLee - I'm not sure what your question is about oestrogen and pms but we've talked a lot about pms and the oestrogen dip - especially in your case where your moods change dramatically as you oestrogen levels change with your cycle - is this what you mean?

Studd said in Briony's post that pms is probably due to progesterone intolerance but elsewhere I am sure he considers it is partly due to the oestrogen dip in the second half of the cycle? It's all very complex!

What is certain is that - firstly, following or at ovulation oestrogen dips and then rises again, and then falls away until menstruation when it starts to rise again. Decreasing and low oestrogen in the second half of the cycle is thought to be responsible for some anxiety and low mood in the second part of the cycle. Secondly progesterone is produced during the second part of the cycle - which can give rise to pms symptoms in some women, and then its fall which can cause pmt - of tension irritability headaches etc.

Pms is the name given to adverse symptoms arising from hormonal changes in the second half of the cycle, which don't occur during the first - and cannot be due to oestrogen itself or increase in oestrogen. Excess oestrogen or too rapid an increase can cause symptoms ( I'm not sure what these are except in pregnancy ie nausea, breast tenderness etc?) and some of these may be similar to pms symptoms caused by progesterone (eg bloating, breast tenderness etc). Well that's how I understand it anyway! Confusing isn't it?! I don't think there is a consensus amongst the medical profession either - well someone tell me there is please!

It's also interesting to see how little oestrogen some of you absorb from what seems like a fairly high dose, but also perhaps how unreliable single blood tests are too. Briony - I am amazed that your doc could say that with those levels, and also that this is all you got on a 100 mcg patch!!

Hurdity x :)
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Briony

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Re: What a difference a day makes? Take two.
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2016, 07:53:15 PM »

Excess oestrogen or too rapid an increase can cause symptoms ( I'm not sure what these are except in pregnancy ie nausea, breast tenderness etc?) and some of these may be similar to pms symptoms caused by progesterone (eg bloating, breast tenderness etc). Well that's how I understand it anyway! Confusing isn't it?! I don't think there is a consensus amongst the medical profession either - well someone tell me there is please!

It's also interesting to see how little oestrogen some of you absorb from what seems like a fairly high dose, but also perhaps how unreliable single blood tests are too. Briony - I am amazed that your doc could say that with those levels, and also that this is all you got on a 100 mcg patch!!

Hurdity x :)

Thanks for the reassurance Hurdity. I was beginning to think I was going mad as it seemed low to me. (It was not long after a withdrawal bleed, but the doc didnt know this).

Interesting what you say about the effects of a sudden high dose of estrogen. I think that's what causes my physical symptoms - especially the painful/weird ones, along with the anxiety. On the other hand, 'normal' PMS (ie what I had before all this hormonal chaos set in) usually meant I tended to be impatient and speak my mind more than I would at other times (and then feel guilty the following day) and I'd also get annoying headaches. (More estrogen tends to help my headaches).
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