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[GypsyRoseLee]

This is just too much of a rollercoaster for me!

Was fine all day yesterday, mood just nicely normal. We went out with friends last night and I really enjoyed myself (I was dreading this on Friday, when I felt so dreadful, and came very close to cancelling).

Had a couple of drinks, but wasn't even merry. Got home after midnight, still feeling perfectly fine. Then simply couldn't get to bloody sleep. Heart beat was fast too. Finally got about 3hrs sleep, maybe, but restless sleep at that with stressful dreaming.

Woke this morning feeling low, jittery and anxious again. Also got that weird, morning sickness style nausea again, where I feel really hungry but slightly sick at the same time.

It would be so helpful if I knew this was due to low oestrogen, as I could adjust my patch accordingly, but I really don't know?

I do know that insomnia/disturbed sleep is due to low oestrogen. But that's all.

Hurdity - thanks for your post, always so informative and useful. But like you say, it's next to impossible to tell what is causing what?

Sparkle - I take my hat off go you for soldiering on through hormonal depression and anxiety without any HRT or ADs, you must be a very stoic and strong person!

Mis71mum - I will keep you posted about my visit to Annie Evans. I am keeping everything crossed that she can help. If she advises a combo of HRT and ADs then that's fine with me. Anything, so long as I can get off this rollercoaster.

Briony - thanks for replying, I know you're feeling rough too at the moment. I've read that section on Studd's website a few times, for reassurance. I just very much wish I knew I needed more oestrogen, then I could just pop on another patch. But I just don't know? And I'm so reluctant to dicker about any further.

It's been 28/29 days since I last had a withdrawal bleed after finishing the first pack of 1/10. So I am hoping I might get a natural period any day now which might bring some relief and stability for a week or so, at least. I had a natural period at Xmas, despite not using any progesterone, and whilst wearing a 50mg latch. So hoping it will happen.again.

[GypsyRoseLee]

I still think you must be much stronger than most sparkle. Certainly more than me at the moment!

[Lizab]

If it makes you feel better, I think you're stronger than me, GRL. The days that I'm good, I'm fine, but when it goes down, I can't function. I was just having a good run and feeling confident enough to consider doing normal adult things like drive and shop, and now I'm back down again. This roller coaster blows.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Thank you lizab, but I feel as emotionally feeble as a kitten today. I used to think I was pretty tough emotionally, but this hormonal anxiety has cut me off at the knees.

It was just the same, years ago when I had PND. I changed literally overnight from being assertive and self confident to being so pathetic and needy. My poor Mum had to virtually move in with us for the first 8 weeks after our baby was born, as I just couldn't cope at all.

So sorry you're heading back down on the rollercoaster. It is so draining and emotionally battering isn't it? You know you will ride upwards on the rollercoaster again, but it doesn't FEEL like it at all, does it?

It's so frustrating too, when you have felt 'well' for a while and you start to think that maybe this time you are finally on the road to recovery.

At my worst I can still 'function' but only in a very basic mode, I must admit. So I can still make myself shower and wear a bit of make up, but I can't bring myself to faff with fripperies like perfume or wearing anything 'nice'.

I can still make myself drive, but it's a real struggle. Same with shopping. I can only nip into a local shop. Can't face the supermarket at all. I feed my family far too much easy, convenience foods as I simply cannot bring myself to cook (and usually I love to cook).

But then when I'm well again, I totally blossom and revert to being very outgoing too.

[GypsyRoseLee]

Well I'm still going to admire you sparkle for winning through to the other side.

I recognise what you mean about brain fog. When I had PND the ADs did take away the panic/anxiety so I assumed I was okay again. But actually I wasn't 'me' at all. I was deliberately living a much smaller life and only doing what felt 'safe'. I think you just do whatever you have to do to get through another day.

[Briony]

Actually, I reckon you're all winners. I bet the majority of people in our situations either do nothing and suffer in silence, or 'read and then run'. We've almost taken ownership of our problems - even if we haven't found solutions - by being so open and honest about sharing our experiences and highlighting our plights. People on here are so willing to offer advice, give a reassuring cyber hug, share their scientific knowledge, admit when things are bad, distribute research and basically help to erase all the taboos and ignorance which have for years clouded all things hormonal.

.... Here's to us all!

                          

[GypsyRoseLee]

Yes, very true Briony.

My mood slowly started to lift yesterday evening, and the awful anxiety faded into the background. So I was able to relax a bit and managed to get quite a good night's sleep.

Woke this morning feeling tired and emotionally very fragile, buy essentially 'okay'. Going to take things very gently today, as I feel like the slightest upset might set me off again.

The more I read, especially on Prof Studd's site, the more I think that I just need more oestrogen. My estradiol levels at Xmas were 305 pmol, and that was with wearing a 50mg patch. Studd talks about women with hormonal anxiety and depression needing levels of 600 pmol, or more in order to feel okay again.

But I simply daren't add another patch or anything right now. I have well and truly had my fingers burnt when it comes to chopping and changing HRT. There have been days this last week where I have felt as dreadful as I did during those first awful weeks when peri brought along this anxiety and depression. I had hoped never to feel that vile again.

[Mary G]

GRL, that oestrogen level is very low, no wonder you have been having so many problems.

I always work on pg/mL and that works out at 84.00 pg/mL which is far too low.  To give you an example, when I was taking Angeliq and topping it up with a 50mcg patch, my blood reading was 75.00 pg/mL which was so ineffectual, I might as well not have bothered taking it.  This level made me feel half baked and not where I should be at all. 

The 50mcg patch is supposed to the equivalent of 2 pumps of gel but there is no way that this can be the case.  My readings on 2 pumps of gel are radically different to a 50mcg patch.

I need high levels of oestrogen to feel good and I think you are the same.  You would probably feel better on at least 600 pmol/l (163 pg/mL) or perhaps more.  Many women go as high as 800 pmol/l and I remember a member saying recently that her gynaecologist said she bats on 800 pmol/l. 

[GypsyRoseLee]

Hi MaryG

I don't know how to convert pmol to pg/ml so I will just have to take your word for it, but it makes sense to me that it is actually very low, hence all these awful mood dips and anxiety.

But if it is so low, I wonder why no one has contacted me from the Meno Clinic? And no one has contacted me from my GP surgery?

Then again, on the print out of my estradiol levels, it says that 'the reference range' for:

Follicular phase is up to 606 pmol/L
Midcycle 253 - 1930 pmol/L
Luteal 121 - 804 pmol/L

So, on paper I guess my level of 305 is seen as fairly normal?

But I certainly don't feel normal, and doubt whether it can be normal for me at all?

God knows what it would have been without me wearing a 50mg patch???

[Chi chi]

Reading this has prompted me to have another look at all my results since starting treatment.

Before I suspected hormones I had blood tests at the dr's, in Nov 2011 my estrogen was 307 and testosterone 1.4

Fast forward to June 2014 when I first saw studd, it was 125 and my testosterone was 0.4
By Sep it had increased to 1001 and testosterone was 8.3 interestingly this was when I felt the best that I've ever felt while on HRT.
Since then my levels have dropped and stuck around 437-474 my testosterone also stayed around the 8 mark but at my last test had dropped to 2.2.

Oddly in April 2015 I had my implants and my estrogen dropped from 1001 to 438??
Since starting HRT 90% of the time I've used 3 or 4 pumps

[Mary G]

GRL/chi chi, the one thing I have learnt in all of this is that none of it is an exact science and what is supposedly 'normal' on paper is very often not the reality.

Just because one person feels good on one level of oestrogen doesn't mean everyone else will.  Some women, myself included, need to be on a high level of oestrogen permanently. 

Blood levels alone are not the best indication of how much oestrogen you need.  The only way to really find out is to try different doses and decide which one you feel best on. 

Part of the reason the Oestrogel is so successful is because it is flexible. 

[GypsyRoseLee]

That's very true MaryG

But if you decide to change your gel dose, how long are you meant to wait to see the results e.g. how long are you meant to stick with a dose?

I have thought all along that I probably need more oestrogen than a 'normal' amount that suits most women. I have always felt fantastic around ovulation, and was super fertile. I have always had very good skin, and still no lines or wrinkles despite being nearly 46!

But, conversely I have always really suffered with PMS and then PND. So, my body loves oestrogen and has been used to plenty of it, but equally it hates progesterone.

It's recognised that men have very different levels of testosterone, and usually have certain physical criteria in conjunction with this.

So why not women?

[Clovie]

Ahhhhh!  SO sorry to read your 'what a difference a day makes' take one didn't last!! 

I got cheesed off on your behalf when I read this, your take 2! 

I hate this. Hate not knowing if what we are doing to try to help ourselves is helping or not. Hate that its not an exact science, hate the guesswork, hate having to attempt to be our own doctor.

You have my total sympathy, and I'm sending a hug x.

[Mary G]

GRL, snap!  My body likes lots of oestrogen too.  You really need to try each dose for about a month.  That way, you get the idea whether or not it is enough particularly in conjunction with the wretched Utrogestan.  The fact that you always had PMS is confirmation that you need a lot of oestrogen. 

Clovie, I got used to being my own doctor years ago.  Many doctors don't know anything about the menopause or HRT so you have no choice.  You cannot rely on your doctor for guidance if they don't know about the different types of HRT.  The last time I spoke to my GP about HRT, I knew more about it that she did.  It horrifies me that doctors are still putting women on the wrong type of HRT. 

[GypsyRoseLee]

Aw bless you Clovie, thank you x

I hate the guessing so much. I like things to be precise. As for being your own doctor, the first time I saw my new GP she assumed I was from a medical background as I knew more about HRT than her. I despair.