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[Dancinggirl]

Hi ladies
We often get posts on MM asking about 'natural' remedies or women wanting to pursue the 'natural route' when dealing with their meno symptoms and I am finding this progressively more worrying. 

I have certainly dabbled with herbal and dietary remedies, supplements and all sorts of alternative treatments - I've spent a fortune over the years but most have had no positive effect. What I am worried about are the possible negative effects any so called 'natural' remedies might be having and I don't just mean on our financial health
It is so easy to purchase all manor of supplements, herbs and remedies which claim all sorts of cures yet, though I deep down know they won't necessarily do anything, I can still fall for the charms of these 'natural cures' and I fear there are many others who do the same.
The HRT and drugs prescribed by our doctors have been tested extensively so side effects and benefits are generally known but so many herbs and remedies we buy over the counter will not have been tested or produced with the same diligence.
St John's Wort has been extensively studied and carries warnings if taken with other drugs - whilst it can be effective for mild to moderate low mood, which brand should one buy and what is an appropriate dose?  I believe Echinacea should only be taken for a maximum of 6 weeks at a time.  Excessive doses of certain vitamins like Vitamin A can be harmful.
Many women use Black Cohash for flushes - is this totally safe?
Early on in my peri stage I went to a chinese doctor believing that the herbal concoction she gave me would be more natural than HRT - I later found out it could have been highly toxic if taken for any length of time.

Should we be self medicating and experimenting with these 'natural remedies' without professional advice??
DG x

[BrightLight]

No - I really believe that professional advice and treatment using complementary medicine is paramount to it's success and safety.  Any remedy you can buy over the counter is only suitable for mild symptoms and some everyday acute situations.  Balancing of hormones is a complicated issue and to get the most out of any medicine (both orthodox and complementary) I believe professional guidance is needed.

I do however believe that complementary medicine can be very effective

[honeybun]

I am a great believer in natural remedies but I am lucky in that I have Jan de Vries in my area. He is a very well known and respected practioner.

One of the first things he asks is what are you taking.

However he also has a help line that is staffed by very knowledgeable ladies who also take time and care before any suggestions are made.

I think the number is available on his website....if not if anyone would like it then please PM me and I will send it when I get home.

They obviously want you to buy and will post things out but I always ask for advice, do my own research and then buy from the cheapest place....which is sometimes them.


Honeybun
X

[GypsyRoseLee]

Yes I worry. I worry very much.

Millions of pounds every year is spent on 'natural' remedies which have not been proven in any way whatsoever. Often these natural remedies cost 3-4 times more than a NHS prescription.

I will never understand why people waste their money on these bogus medicines. Their effect is entirely psychosomatic. A world authority on alternative medicine and lecturer based at Exeter University (can't remember his name for the moment) spent years conducting an investigative study which showed that only Black Cohosh and St John's Wort had some SLIGHT benefits. All the rest were just pointless placebos.

I'm sure people just buy into the romantic ideal that their herbalist/homeopath gets up on a summer's dawn to hand pick wild herbs and flowers growing free in the hedgerows, before carefully distilling them down into magical potions 

Instead, of course, these alternative practitioners source their pills and potions from the cheapest supplier, who is entirely unregulated and selling products that haven't been scientifically tested or analysed in anyway. It's dangerous and delusional.

Yes, people had to make do with herbs and home grown medicinal remedies for thousands of years. And that's why mortality rates were so incredibly high until the advent of modern medicine. People back in medieval times, suffering with God knows what illnesses and ailments, would have thanked their lucky stars to have access to the drugs we have nowadays. They'd have sprinted out of their local hedgewitches' hovel or apothecary's shop faster than you could blink to get their hands on modern medicine.

Yet, ironically we now have millions of people keen to try tinctures and pills that were doing the rounds 800 years ago. They didn't work back then and they don't work now.   

[peegeetip]

Without treading on any toes here too, just making a wider point.

As already said there are no studies that have ever shown the supplements actually work.
Even recent vit d studies showed no beneficial effects on ladies with menopause symptoms.

They can give the placebo effect for some ladies too which further confuses things.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11910672

Ultimately we are able to purchase these items if we want.
If it helps, great, if it does not, we move on.
Unfortunately the hidden dangers and costs to our time, purse, liver and other aspects of our well being are just not understood, studied or visible in the same way we have for HRT options.

The other item that some ladies don't factor in is time.
If we spend our time (and money) on supplements for a few months or years, then that is time our bodies have been without estrogen.
In this time there are aspects of menopause that may take a long time to resolve depending on how long we've put off using HRT, that is a fact and well understood in terms of bones, flushes, atrophy and all the other symptoms/issue we get.

Personally I wish I'd taken HRT before the point my body cried "stop" in relation to bladder/atrophy related symptoms I had. It took my body a long time to repair after starting HRT.

But I'm glad I did not put my faith on supplements, when things could have got much worse, more difficult and longer to recover from.

So "yes" I am more worried about "Natural Remedies" or perhaps non-hormone / non-medicinal remedies might be a better name for these supplements.
 

[babyjane]

I have used St John's Wort successfully for 6 years with my doctor's blessing as I cannot tolerate SSRIs.  My endocrinologist also knows I use it and is happy for me to do so as it helps keep me on an even keel.

[Dancinggirl]

Oh dear - have I opened a can of worms???

Honeybun and Brightlight - you are actually endorsing my viewpoint.  I know there are some highly reputable professionals out there - many of whom have medical training - who can offer good advice. I just wish we didn't have to pay for it.
My worry is also around what GypsyRoseLee is saying concerning the bandwagon that so many join in the belief that herbs and remedies are somehow 'natural'.  Many drugs are plant based after all so if you use herbs and remedies are these not drugs?
babyjane - yes, St John's Wort is actually prescribed by doctors as a first line of treatment in some countries.
 
When I had my year out from HRT in 2013/14, I bought Red clover (terribly expensive) and ate a lot of soya and other phytoestrogenic foods in the hope my flushes would improve - sadly I experienced no improvement. I did hear (I'm certainly not sure this is true) that women who have breast cancer are actually advised not to have a diet high in phytoestrogens - which in turn would raise the question, "If phytoestrogens reduce meno symptoms by giving us some form of oestrogen, are there not risks in eating this kind of diet?"

If the herbs and remedies could offer significant help for our meno symptoms without the risks of taking HRT, do you think the drugs companies would have found a way to market them for profit or have them prescribed by our doctors?
I so long for there to be some magic remedy that can help we meno ladies without the risks and side effects of HRT.       DG xxx

[peegeetip]

The trouble on your usage of SJW babyjane is simple.

If the doc prescribed a drug that could have potential damage to your liver then they would screen for that damage ever so often.

Most people taking SJW on their own are not being monitored or reviewed in any way.

You might be lucky and have no issues but perhaps it might be good to get your doc to check out how your body is coping.
Just to be on the safe side

 

[BrightLight]

You can't patent food and you can't patent herbs, or accupuncture.  We live in a commercial world.

For perspective, there are many many drugs that are NOT released that can save lives, there are many studies that begin to prove the effectiveness of nutrition on conditions on the Autistic Spectrum - there is never any money to pursue the first findings.

We live in an imperfect world and we have to choose what to put our trust in, what we feel comfortable with and what relationships we form with those that care for our health, there simply isn't a black or white, right or wrong.  There are pro's and con's to almost every choice and in the future we will look back, perhaps, on some medical breakthroughs and think they were as naive as picking some leaves to help our digestion

I am being somewhat tongue in cheek with my words, but I really do think it's misguided to even begin to think there is ONE answer to anything.  The point of DG's post that really is important is that we must take responsibility for our choices and many complementary medicines do have a bad press and quite rightly so. IF the patient is lulled into a false sense of expectation or non 'danger' - the same could be said of pharmaceuticals though.  Buyer beware

[babyjane]

Well I would rather take SJW than SSRIs (and I have tried a few of those in the past) - nasty toxic things with horrible side effects.

My endocrinologist does a whole blood screen across the board every 6 - 12 months so I am not going looking for any further issues or there is a danger of becoming a little health obsessed.

[Dancinggirl]

Good points kateclaws.  Many GPs are clueless when it comes to treating meno symptoms and often offer ADs/SRRIs instead of HRT simply assuming women are depressed and declare that HRT is too dangerous.  ADs and SRRIs also carry some nasty side effects but nobody seems to be worried about that.!! GPs will usually glance through their 'magic' book and choose the cheapest option or the wrong type of HRT as well. DG x

[honeybun]

I do not PAY for a consultation with Jan de Vries...it's free.

I agree with BJ. I would rather put something like SJW in my body than an AD if I could. SJW is prescribed widely by GPs in Germany as a first choice rather than ADs. Yes it does need monitoring but at least you can stop when you want rather than having to taper.

How many of us gave our kids vitamins when they were small, lots of us I'm sure and on the advice of a health professional.

We don't have a perfect diet so most of us need a little topping up with a multi Vit.

I don't suffer from any placebo effect, neither do I think they are pointless placebos. My general improvement in certain conditions prove that they are not pointless.

I find it quite offensive to be told this to be honest.

We are all entitled to our opinions and if some of us choose to supplement things with alternatives then so be it.....we are not telling anyone not to use HRT....are we !!!!!


Honeybun
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[Dancinggirl]

honeybun - I'm sorry if you feel this thread has offended - that was not my intention.  I do take vitamins as I know I'm better with them - particularly Vitamin D.  I'm a big fan of Omega oils as well.  I recently tried the Krill oil version as my joints were aching quite a bit, this is a bigger dose of Omegas than the one I was previously taking and my joints have been a lot better.
SJW has been extensively researched and is known to be beneficial but still needs to be taken with caution.
I have paid out so much money over the years on remedies and alternative treatments with very little benefit I just wanted to find out how others felt about these options and whether it was worth it. As always on this site, there are very differing views.
I'm afraid many women are firmly told by their GPs that HRT is too dangerous and sent away to 'ride the storm' because it's 'NATURAL'
Maybe we need to look at what 'NATURAL' actually means these days?  DG x

[honeybun]

I don't find the thread offensive at all DG.

I think it's a valid discussion, but I do object to being told I'm wasting my money on pointless treatements for nothing more than a placebo effect.

Now that is just wrong.

None of us have the right to make such a sweeping statement.

We have to respect others choices.

Honeybun
X

[Dorothy]

Wow!  There are some strong opinions on this topic! 

I'm sure people just buy into the romantic ideal that their herbalist/homeopath gets up on a summer's dawn to hand pick wild herbs and flowers growing free in the hedgerows, before carefully distilling them down into magical potions 

Instead, of course, these alternative practitioners source their pills and potions from the cheapest supplier, who is entirely unregulated and selling products that haven't been scientifically tested or analysed in anyway. It's dangerous and delusional.

I feel this is a bit 'sweeping'.  I am sure there are lots of people who have romantic, fluffy ideas about herbalism, but also many knowledgeable people who know what they are doing.  I am concerned by people who 'play around' with natural remedies, and by the way it is so unregulated, so that desperate people can be fooled, or worse, harmed, by unscrupulous 'practitioners'.  But that doesn't mean anyone who uses herbalism is dangerous or delusional!!! 

I have had more success treating my psoriasis with herbal preparations than with the steroid creams prescribed by my doctor.  I've also treated other minor medical problems herbally.  There are many herbal remedies that have not been scientifically tested, so it is not possible to say if the beneficial effects are placebo or not!  When it comes to the menopause, natural remedies are not going to provide the protection that HRT will give, but if women are unable to access HRT, then natural remedies are all they have to work with.  For a while, I was limited to natural remedies as my previous GP wouldn't believe I was perimenopausal, and they are a lot better than nothing!

My biggest worry is the way so many people equate 'natural' with 'safe'.  And how people take things without researching the effects first.  I once read a horrific little booklet which recommended 'herbal teas' made from 'any herb' to ease morning sickness. No mention of the herbs that can cause miscarriage if consumed during pregnancy...