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[GypsyRoseLee]

Was chatting to a female GP at work yesterday. She is 59 and has been on HRT for years and intends to never come off.

She pointed out that women simply were not designed to live without nice levels of oestrogen. Up until 100 years ago very few women would even live to go through the menopause, as the vast majority of women were dead well before they turned 50. She said that going through menopause was the OPPOSITE of 'a natural process'. It's UNNATURAL, because we just weren't designed to do it.

The NATURAL process was for women to start having babies in their mid teens. They would pop out lots of babies. Then their bodies would be worn out and they would be dead by the time they were about 40. This is what we have been genetically engineered to do. So all this airy fairy nonsense about menopause being a natural process which we should embrace and accept is frankly a crock of poo 

She said the fact that most women 'settle down' hormonally, eventually, after the menopause was really neither here nor there. It was just pure luck. Women were never designed to be post menopausal in the first place.

She said that expecting women to go through the menopause without oestrogen, and to live a further 30-40 years without oestrogen was just bizarre. She pointed out that expecting women to do this would be like expecting men to have their testicles cut off at 45 and to live without testosterone for the rest of their lives.

She wondered how well men would cope 

[CLKD]

Well I agree with the latter statement  ……….. if it were even suggested   

However, if we weren't 'designed' to go into menopause then why do we?  Surely periods would stop and that would be that  no other symptoms ……...

Both my Grandmas lived until they were mid-80s (died in the 1980s): both had several children: and my Great-Grans into their 70s.  I think your GP is probably correct about the lower and working classes not living to a 'great' age as they would be worn out with child-bearing, hard house work, probably doing several jobs to keep food on the table …….. and it is known that women would have the 'vapours' or take to their beds feeling ill without really knowing why and without any sympathy from others.  I don't know how either Grans went through meno..  it wasn't talked about.

It's OK for the GP to tell you that she 'intends to never come off' as she can reach for the Prescription pad as necessary - does she accept that there are 'guidelines' and hopefully she will ignore these, both for herself and her patients 

Could she start a Menopause Clinic ? 

[SueRoe]

I think it's to do with the fact that our periods are part of the monthly cycle that's triggered by egg release and hormonal feedback. When our ovaries / stock of eggs start to fail in our forties the hormone levels go haywire and the symptoms of menopause are the result. I think our periods stopping is a by-product of the failure of the hormone cycle and the cessation of periods is inevitably linked to hormonal chaos and menopause symptoms. As GRL's GP says, women frequently died in childbirth (regardless of class) or from living a tough life before they got to our stage of life. But if we're short of a hormone we should be given it, just as someone who is short of insulin, thyroxine etc is. And if we need it for ever so be it.

[Limpy]

However, if we weren't 'designed' to go into menopause then why do we?  Surely periods would stop and that would be that  no other symptoms ……...

Er - I think till 100 years ago it's fair to say that women were always pregnant, they never had menstrual cycles, just kept popping out babies.  As GRLs GP friend said, women were usually dead before they reached 50, they never lived long enough for periods to stop, i.e. reach menopause.

[Annie0710]

The only good thing that I gained from my gynae appt a few weeks ago was that if its my wishes to forever stay on hrt, I can (now I just need to find one that'll take all my symptoms away!)

Annie xx

[CLKD]

Surprisingly : when watching the various 'who do you think U R'-type programmes shows that women did survive beyond 60  ………… but how their quality of Life was is rarely mentioned.  My family and the one which I married into have longevity, years back. 

I agree Freda: if someone requires a boost then what's the problem with the medical profession recognising that hormone adjustment can improve Life all round? Litigation?

[Limpy]

The only good thing that I gained from my gynae appt a few weeks ago was that if its my wishes to forever stay on hrt, I can (now I just need to find one that'll take all my symptoms away!)

Annie xx

At least if you find one that suits Annie, you'll be able to stay on it!

[Limpy]

Surprisingly : when watching the various 'who do you think U R'-type programmes shows that women did survive beyond 60  ………… but how their quality of Life was is rarely mentioned.  My family and the one which I married into have longevity, years back. 

See what you mean CLKD.

At least now more Drs are thinking about the quality of life for women.

[CLKD]

I think women are trained to shut up and put up 

Me, I'm great at having a Very Good Moan.  Also, if I don't get a 'good' response from my GP I wait a week then go back for more discussions …….

[babyjane]

if we're short of a hormone we should be given it, just as someone who is short of insulin, thyroxine etc is. And if we need it for ever so be it.

I wonder if it could be becuase if you do not take insulin or thyroxine, if you have diabetes or hypothyroidism, you would eventually die.  As far as I can tell lacking oestrogen will not kill you so some GPs are reluctant to add it to the practice budget.

[CLKD]

There is probably a lot of truth there Babyjane - but depression can be fatal so GPs should take on board the anxiety and depression that ladies of a 'certain' age suffer with, also GPs need to recognise that meno-symptoms can begin when they like, not when GPs think they ought to start   

Also, it is more recognised that many women need to give up work as it gets too much …… so if GPs were more knowledgeable?

[BrightLight]

I tend to think it's evolution and we don't always know why things adapt the way they do, it's interesting.  We are the only mammals that speed up egg production and eventually run out - so there must be a reason for this.

This Wiki article is interesting : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmother_hypothesis

[pepperminty]

I whole heartedly agree with your post GRL,

and we actually weren't designed to have periods also , they serve no real purpose and DR Currie makes that point. I bet if this menopause business was the same for men and it involved things like their dangly bits atrophying and tearing , anxiety , night sweats and the rest HRT would be an NHS/ medical priority and all forms of HRT given free like the pill.   

Peppermintyxx

[CLKD]

  - how wasn't I designed to suffer periods ………

[Hurdity]

Interesting thread!

Your GP is quite wrong though GypsyRoseLee... she doesn't understand natural selection nor genetics!

The distinction should be made between life expectancy and life-span. There is a stuff written about this which you can google! CLKD is right. I wouldn't use the word "designed" as that implies a higher power at work (!) but as BrightLight said it's all about evolution and natural selection.

Our life-span is the average age a woman can live to - without other intervening factors like disease etc. As far as I remember from what I read a while back, our potential life-span has not changed much (if at all) over the same time period that our life expectancy has changed a great deal. The GP is is right about survival and death (life-expectancy). However it doesn't alter the fact that women have evolved (genetically) to have a period of time in post-menopause. The grandmother hypothesis is one explanation for why this is so.

We are absolutely not genetically engineered to die at 40 (life-span)! That is absolute rubbish! What she is meaning which is true that because our life-expectancy has inreased dramatically due to modern medicine we do now on average live to our allotted life-span which (itself may be increasing) - which means yes maybe a third of our life or more in menopause.

It is most definitely a natural process - but that doesn't mean we should suffer because of it! The main problem with any changes that happen after reproductive age is that natural selection cannnot operate (by which I mean that any genes which confer some sort of advantage due not prefentially survive to the next generation). One thing is certain that we are not genetically programmed to die as soon as we have finished reproducing. As well as the grandmother hypothesis you could argue that because of the dependence of human infants on their mothers for survival, more children will survivie to the next generation (and pass on their genes) if their mothers stay alive long enough to be able to rear them to maturity and independence. Using that argument I would expect in the very long (evolutionary) term (thousands of years?) that there should be less of a difference between menopause and death - say 15 or 16 years or up to 18. The fact that there is a disparity is because medicine etc is artificially increasing our life expectancy so that natural selection maybe will not operate in quite the same way. Anyway, of course, the evolution of menopause and reproduction and lifespan does not operate in isolation so other factors affecting our survival, and other aspects of ageing etc come into play.

Oh that was a bit of a ramble...

The main point aside from all that (that GypsyRosLee's GP was making) - our bodies do suffer and deteriorate from lack of oestrogen and I agree that it is bizarre to expect us to live 30-40 years without it ( due to our increased life-expectancy). As for hypothyroidism - many people who are given thyroxine will not have the condition anywehere near severe enough to die from it -  under general NHS principles it is given when TSH falls outside the "normal" range (I'm not talking here about people who have no thryoid hormone production at all just as some people have no insulin). However it does improve quality of life enormously for those who take it, in the same way that oestrogen does. 

Hurdity x