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[Dandelion]

The deaths seem to be from heart disease and stroke.  This is a summary of the report linked above http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8408783.stm

It's difficult to work out what's the cause in a lot of cases. Depression can be linked to cardio vascular disease anyway so maybe it's the depression and not the antidepressants causing the deaths?

Taz x

I looked into a few different online literatures about depression linked to cardio vascular disease and I can see how it would make sense from a physical point of view, nothing to do with Prof Studds literature.
Low mood and also anxiety makes the cardiovascular system respond, as well as other physical systems.
My Dad was a depressed stress head, and he had a sudden aortic anneurysm.
Dad had high BP and was on BP meds.
Sometimes when I get my BP taken, the doc comments that it is high, but it goes down to normal as well. I can see why my BP goes high sometimes. I am not worried about getting an anneurysm like my Dad, cos I would start worrying about getting run over by a bus, an earthquake, cancer, or anything.

[Dandelion]

It's difficult to read all of the threads properly all of the time.

Taz x 

I have this difficulty too, but there is some interesting stuff in this thread.

[CLKD]

What other 'type' of AD is there other than those that are synthesised?  we are made of chemicals after all  and a lot of our food stuffs have chemicals to keep them from going 'off' etc..  Some chemicals can be good for us (though can't think of a single 1 right now  )

Thanks Taz ....... 

I am in Love with Ben Goldacre  - he talks a lot of sense 

Geordie Girl - if you saw what might be floating in our streams/rivers/seas    - I used to swim regularly in a sandy river but I wouldn't consider it now, though 'wild' swimming is quite popular.  As well as it being too cold there's too much pre-swim prep to be done 

[honeybun]

So what are you supposed to take if you develop anxiety whilst on HRT that is working well for other meno symptoms. The one AD that I tried made me sick and gave me extreme shakes. It was the most horrible 24 hours. I'm not prepared to try again as I'm sensitive to meds at the best of times.
So what's next....just get on with it I guess.

Each one to their own. My hubby is not keen for me to be on ADs but would support my choice....but if there is no choice what then.

It's just will power that gets me through some days and nothing else.


Honeybun
X

[Greenfields]

Honeybun a lot of ADs have side effects which are supposed to subside over time - I've heard that it takes 6 - 8 weeks for them to kick in.  I stopped taking Sertraline 50mg after I had the most severe side effects after 2 doses (1 per day).  Like you I am very sensitive to meds.

In terms of other things, have you tried any alternative stuff?  For eg, acupuncture, yoga, altering your diet (seeing a nutritionist to see whether you need more magnesium or B vits) or more exercise or relaxation exercises ... those are a few things that come to mind.  Acupuncture and massage helped me for a long time - especially the acupuncture for anxiety - it always calmed my system down.

I feel fortunate in that the HRT I'm on now seems to be working well with the meno symptoms.  But, because of my breakdown and because I want to support my body generally, I've been doing other stuff as well - like more exercise and altering my diet.  I've found that exercise has definitely made a difference to how I feel - I feel so much better after doing it even if I feel dreadful beforehand.

I know it can be challenging to fit exercise in - especially if you have a busy life and you're working - but it might be worth a try.  When I worked, I used to go for an early morning swim about 3 times a week.  It meant getting up at the crack of dawn but it used to set me up for the day and on the days that I didn't do it, I really missed it.

Years ago, (20+) when I had panic attacks (which were not meno related) I used to do a differential relaxation exercise tape twice a day - once in the morning and once at night.  That helped a lot too - you tense and release muscles in turn.  My ITalk counsellor sent me a CD of relaxation tracks recently but you can download them - see the link here: http://glasgowspcmh.org.uk/downloads/audio

[honeybun]

I do relaxation excercise. I did have CBT but unfortunately did not like my councillor. I have numerous self help books that I read.
I try to eat really well too. The only vitamins that I take are a multi one and also fish oils.

I really don't want to try ADs again. I can't afford to take time out to get over the side effects as I am a carer for my mother. Also if anything involves being sick then it's not for me  I'm phobic.

I try to walk every day and I spend a lot of time gardening in the summer.

I maybe need to look at the B vitamins but ice tried such a lot of things.

At the moment it's grit my teeth and get on with things as for some reason life is busier at 54 than it probably should be.


Honeybun
X

[Limpy]

ADs are not just used to treat depression. They are also used for pain relief, I think the underlying logic being that they alter the way the pain receptors in the brain work. Some of them apparently also reduce hot flushes, they really are versatile things.

Perhaps it's not surprising that they have wider ranging impacts on the body than those which were originally intended. They may impact BP, but when there aren't many options for medication, people will always balance risks against benefits.

[GeordieGirl]

What other 'type' of AD is there other than those that are synthesised?  we are made of chemicals after all  and a lot of our food stuffs have chemicals to keep them from going 'off' etc..  Some chemicals can be good for us (though can't think of a single 1 right now  ) 

A lot of our (processed) food stuffs have chemicals in , in fact there are 3000 unnecessary additives in US food (fortunately in Europe we're more stringent, until of course the TTIP bill gets around this). Additives like aspartame are found in a lot of processed food, monosodium glutamate; sodium benzoate; BHA; artificial food colourings....and many, many more. Some manufacturers have taken steps to cut these out - Pepsi are taking out aspartame but only in the US due to consumer pressure, a number of large food manufacturers are reducing colourants.

For millennia humans haven't eaten these artificial chemicals and indeed in many cases the effect of these isn't fully known. What is known however is that we've rising epidemics of obesity, heart disease, cancers and many more diseases. Diseases that just aren't prevalent in countries that eat a more natural diet and aren't exposed to artificial food and toxins.

Since late last year my girls and I have changed our diet considerably (if I'm fighting cancer, I'm going to give my body the very best chances of doing so, without overloading it with cr@p food and toxins). I've got to say we've never felt better - I've more energy, my skin's glowing and soft. The (bio-identical !) HRT has sorted out the last few niggly bits.  My daugher's eczema is better than ever.

I'm on a few diet groups on Facebook and it never ceases to amaze me what rubbish some people shovel away and then expect to lose weight, or then wonder why they're feeling lethargic and lack lustre. Living off diet drinks and low fat (high sugar high salt) processed food is a recipe for disaster.

Occasionally we do need to defer to synthetic products - if we're ill and nothing else works for example - but our bodies are far better placed to cope with these if we're doing everything else right.

As for swimming in our streams, I wouldn't be too keen on jumping in the Mersey canal with all it's effluent and chemical overspill, but give me a clear mountain spring in the Swiss mountains and I'd be the first one in.     

[CLKD]

What chemical overspill - isn't allowed these days, the Environment Agency are hot to trot on such issues (DH managed a sewage works  )

Synthetic ADs?

As for side effects, I had some horrid ones, the first being nausea.  I was told that the effects would lessen in 2-6 weeks but I couldn't live with the nausea.  In the 1980s/90s I tried 5 ADs before one suited me.  Not completely but enough to function again.  Prozac almost killed me.  As did Tamoxifen.  I admire anyone who can work through medication which causes nausea 

I found relaxation therapy useful.  Starting from the toes, tensing relaxing muscle groups. 

[honeybun]

Chemical spills do take place though CLKD. Farmers are guilty of poisoning waterways which impacts on a lot of things.

The environmental agency can't be everywhere.

Lots of wild swimming up here GG, blooming cold though. There is one swim in the hills behind us. Large pool with a high jump in. The kids love it.


Honeybun
X

[CLKD]

>wave< - when was the last chemical spill?  Occasionally water courses are polluted and the EA and local water Authority are soon on the scene …….. death to fish can be anything from a sudden change in natural atmospheric conditions: we lost 5 large orfs many years ago when there was a sudden change across the county causing a drop in oxygen levels: to run-off from fields after flooding.  Slurry from farms is the other problem locally, fortunately farmers don't use the quantity of 'nitrates' etc. which used to cause problems.

What was the question again    ….. and will you be jumping into the wild pool anytime soon?

[honeybun]

There have been a few CLKD. One in the English Channel a couple of years ago killed 3000 birds.


Think I've got a little old for jumping in a freezing cold pool. I have done it and I know there are people my age that do regularly. We also have round the year sea swimmers here too. They are mad 


Honeybun
X

[CLKD]

No sense no feeling 

My skinny dipping days are over unless it's in Italy where it's warm.

[Limpy]

What chemical overspill - isn't allowed these days, the Environment Agency are hot to trot on such issues (DH managed a sewage works  )

Gosh CLKD - The Mersey Canal that I remember went through Chemical works, may also have been some oil refineries there as well. 

I'm sure the EA and local water authorities would do something about spills if they could but I suspect they've been cut back to the bone.

[CLKD]

Until there are spills - and certain industries HAVE TO produce clean water etc. before it can be discharged and these samples are sent to the EA - DH had to do so every 5/6 days, otherwise the Company would be closed immediately.

Things have improved in generally since God was a Lad  .  Fortunately.

Crikey that's a meander  ……. relaxation therapy was difficult, I couldn't find time and my mind continued racing if I sat down even with a  on my lap.  The tense/release muscle exercises I could do in bed.