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[Dandelion]

I was just reading Professor John Studd's website regarding antidepressants under his depression info and came across this.

Smoller and colleagues (2009) have shown a 45% increase in stroke, a 32% increase in all cause mortality, a 210% increase in fatal stroke and a 212% increase in haemorrhagic stroke in women taking antidepressants.

I have not looked into the Smoller study, but I know that Prof Stuff is a respected Professor of Gynaecology

I don't mean to alarm you, but if I am not mistaken, aren't those statistics showing a larger risk from antidepressants than from HRT above a certain age?

Anyway, all comments welcome, I just thought I would post that up to see what you all think.

[thorntrees]

I haven't read the study but it is 6years old and as always with these things if you search enough you can find another study that contradicts the first one. Taking a low dose AD has helped me to get some balance back in my life post menopause when HRT was not an option so I think I will stick with it on the advice of my GP for the time being. What I do know is that if you are taking ADs you should not stop them suddenly whatever any study says as that can be dangerous!. The internet is a wonderful source of information but can  also put doubts in our minds but as you say it will be interesting to see what others on the forum have to say.

Thorntrees

[Taz2]

I think this is the full report http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=773902 I found this part (under Comment) interesting

"The association between antidepressants and all-cause mortality in our study is notable because this outcome has not been widely examined in prior studies. The distribution of causes of death did not indicate any category that accounted for this excess risk. Thus, it remains unclear from our data whether antidepressants have a causal effect on mortality or are merely a marker of increased risk from other causes (eg, residual depressive symptoms) that may not have been fully controlled."

Taz x 

[Dandelion]

Hi Ladies

Thanks for your posts.
So, basically, those percentages did seem quite  high didn't they.
Perhaps Professor studd's text may have been quite alarmist?

[GeordieGirl]

Hi Ladies

Thanks for your posts.
So, basically, those percentages did seem quite  high didn't they.
Perhaps Professor studd's text may have been quite alarmist?

Percentages can be very misleading. If one person in a million has issues and this increases to 5 in a million, it's a 500% increase.....and yet such a tiny actual figure. I don't know where the data was first reported but if it first originated in the media, then take it lightly - the press are notorious for scare mongering. The best places to check studies is PubMed or the Cochrane site (which reviews studies). That said, there are a number sponsored by pharmaceutical companies that come under question.

I would still be suspicious of long term use of ADs but that's just me - I prefer natural rather than synthetic substances.
GG x

[Greenfields]

I think context is everything too.

I never intended to go on HRT for my menopausal symptoms as I'm very into natural ways of treatment - but when everything blew up for me, HRT was the thing that worked most effectively and I can function on it. 

I'm not completely comfortable taking what I'm taking but, weighing up the health risks versus my lack of ability to function and my symptoms when I wasn't on it, I've decided I need to take the risks and if it shortens my life well, so be it - I will have to accept that.

My solution in part has been to try and continue doing natural things that will also support my treatment - such as dietary changes and exercise - in the hope that I can come off the HRT as soon as I'm able to - though that might be a few years down the road.  But I would like to avoid taking it long term (5+ years) if I can.   

AD's can be very effective for some.  For others they don't work.  At the end of the day, decisions on medications are such an individual thing.

[GypsyRoseLee]

I have experienced ADs twice. 14 years ago after being diagnosed with PND, then last year after my GP insisted I was just suffering with 'normal' depression.

Both time the ADs 'worked' but only insofar that they seemed to switch off virtually all of my emotions and turned me into a slightly dreamy robot. 14 years ago on Prozac & Setraline I was unable to ever orgasm and was unable to dream. I couldn't giggle and I couldn't cry (lost both grandparents during that time and couldn't shed a tear). I felt like a synthetic version of myself.

Last year on Amitriptyline I was able to orgasm easily but gained 14 libs in weight and lived my life in a gentle fog.

Both weren't satisfactory treatments.

I have read Prof. John Studd's research and it shows that ADs should NOT automatically be the first line of treatment for peri menopausal women suffering with hormonal depression. And that hormonal depression is something quite different to clinical depression and so needs treating very differently.

I have been taking HRT for just over 6 weeks now and I feel that it is kicking in. Importantly I am starting to feel ike ME again. The proper me. Not an anti-depressant induced synthetic version of myself.

Don't know if anyone has seen the TV trailers for the new series 'Humans' on Chanel 4, with the synthetic woman 'Sally' doing chores around the house? Well the trailer really gives me the creeps because 'Sally' is exactly how I felt when I had PND and was on ADs. I was just going through the motions very efficiently. And I could smile but it never reached my eyes. My eyes always looked flat and dead. You can see it in photos of the time   

[rebelyell]

I was also a bit 'zombie' like on citalopram.  I only took them for four months but in that time they upset my bowels so badly I am still suffering for weeks after stopping.  I followed GP instructions to the letter for withdrawal but had awful symptoms and was still having panic attacks until last week.   I now feel OK and am looking at CBT for my anxiety.

I think GPs fall back on ADs too easily and it is not intended for most menopausal anxiety/depression.  I also think that in 20 years time the next generation of women will say 'My God, you put up with that lack of interest/knowledge about the menopause?? How did you manager?'.  I had really bad endometriosis that started in my teens but wasn't diagnosed until I was in late 20s.  It was 'new' then and many GPs had no idea what I was talking about when I told them.  I had to have a hysterectomy at age 40 as my bladder was stuck to my womb!!   My point is that nowadays it is a condition that is well known and researched.  Quite rightly as it had a massive effect on my life.    Let's hope our daughters have better treatment for meno.   There will be so many women over meno age soon that research will  have to catch up.

[CLKD]

I wonder how many of these deaths are by suicide?  I have taken ADs since the 1980s without which I wouldn't be here.  I have a good diet, when well I can exercise regularly, I take a low-maintenance dose of which AD is helping me stay alive.  Quality?

Thanks for raising the subject, always interesting to see how those who are into certain medication methods often 'talk down' others  and statistics can prove anything a statistician wants them to especially if they are after a Grant 

[Taz2]

The deaths seem to be from heart disease and stroke.  This is a summary of the report linked above http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8408783.stm

It's difficult to work out what's the cause in a lot of cases. Depression can be linked to cardio vascular disease anyway so maybe it's the depression and not the antidepressants causing the deaths?

Taz x

[CLKD]

   if I had read the thread properly I would have seen ......... 

[Taz2]

It's difficult to read all of the threads properly all of the time.

Taz x 

[GeordieGirl]

A good book on this is Bad Science by the Guardian journalist, doctor and medical researcher Ben Goldacre. He discusses how statistics are used in a misleading way, but also how studies are dumbed down if they show results the pharmaceuticals don't want them to show (funnily studies carried out under the sponsorship of commercial interests often show different results to independent studies - is it any wonder we're cynical?).  His book Bad Pharma makes even less comfortable reading.

I do believe that chemicals are bad for us and at home we've started trying to strip everything back and get as close as possible to natural products - it's an awful lot more difficult than it should be. It's made me realise how even some of the creams and potions with simple / friendly or eco names are often just a marketing ploy and little better than the next shiny bottle on the shelf. Unfortunately unless we live in rags and bathe in streams I can't see us getting anywhere near 100% on this front though and if we get close to 70-80% I'll be quite chuffed. 

Like everything it's about balance and quality of life. If ADs work for you and the benefit outweighs the risk, then they're worth considering if no alternative options quite cut it for you. If you're doing lots of other stuff right to make sure your body's in the right place, then you're giving yourself the best chances of not being one of the statistics.

GG x

[Dandelion]

Hi Ladies

Thanks for your posts.
So, basically, those percentages did seem quite  high didn't they.
Perhaps Professor studd's text may have been quite alarmist?

Percentages can be very misleading. If one person in a million has issues and this increases to 5 in a million, it's a 500% increase.....and yet such a tiny actual figure. I don't know where the data was first reported but if it first originated in the media, then take it lightly - the press are notorious for scare mongering. The best places to check studies is PubMed or the Cochrane site (which reviews studies). That said, there are a number sponsored by pharmaceutical companies that come under question.

I would still be suspicious of long term use of ADs but that's just me - I prefer natural rather than synthetic substances.
GG x

I never got on with synth AD's either, I still use beta blockers and promethazine as and when, but as for ssri type drugs, I don't want to assault my body with them.
They feel more assaultive or as assaultive as amphetamines did. Same with that quetiapine they had me on for anxiety, my feet and ankles used to blow up so I couldn't walk properly by evening time.
I use 5htp now, for depression, still waiting for it to kick in. It gives amazing dreams though, some nighmarish, but very revealing and theraputic also.

Anyway, I went off at a tangent there.
I see what you mean about percentages and also about the press scaremongering. It's not just right wing press, all political leaning papers are biased.

I didn't look into the percentages, normally I take time to source other people's sources and if it's press I stop. haha

[Dandelion]

I wonder how many of these deaths are by suicide?  I have taken ADs since the 1980s without which I wouldn't be here.  I have a good diet, when well I can exercise regularly, I take a low-maintenance dose of which AD is helping me stay alive.  Quality?

Thanks for raising the subject, always interesting to see how those who are into certain medication methods often 'talk down' others  and statistics can prove anything a statistician wants them to especially if they are after a Grant 

Each to their own and it would be nice if everyone could respect that each person has their own way of dealing with depression, and if a person chooses to use synth AD's, just because I don't get on with them, doesn't mean other peoples choices to use them are invalid.
My trazodone made me have stronger suicidal ideation, yet others feel that their pharm AD stops their suicidal ideation and that is fine.
When I was on them, I was planning suicide, but now, even though the thoughts are still there of sui, I can step back and see them as thoughts, and I am not so 'hands-on' with making practical sui arrangements.
Hopefully as my supplement continues to work, I will feel like moving away from sui thoughts as well.
If it takes a pharm med, an antipsychotic, a supplement, a diet change, whatever, to change someone's suicidality into a more life-affirming stance, then so be it.