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Author Topic: Progesterone only?  (Read 10642 times)

jedigirl

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Progesterone only?
« on: March 28, 2015, 01:43:04 PM »

Today I saw my counsellor, a fantastic lady who specialises in womens health especially infertility and menopause. We discussed why i might be feeling so horrible again and she feels strongly that i may have too much estrogen, based on the fact that i feel sick(my body trying to expel it), my period comes before i finish my progesterone(also my body trying to get rid of lining ie estragen) my night sweats and palpitations have resurfaced mildly and my left kidney is sore(also trying to expel), and where in my cycle this sickness has come.
I trust this lady more than the GPs. She was the one who suggested i go for the 1-25 days on Utrogestan which worked brilliantly for two months. Her theory is that my progesterone levels are naturally none existent or very low so i need the Utrogestan but I am still naturally producing some estrogen and adding the estragel is giving me too much. She recommends that i drop my Estragen gel to one pump a day and see if it helps.
I know this is unusual but does anyone else feel they are low on progesterone not estragen and is anyone on progesterone only HRT?
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jedigirl

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SueRoe

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2015, 04:39:37 PM »

It's unfortunate that most of the information I've found so far about the benefits of progesterone-only supplementation has been written by those with a commercial interest. Often, an article that reads well and makes sense will have an ad for a progesterone supplement at the bottom or bobbing around in the margin. There does seem to be a small but strong school of thought that peri women have too much oestrogen and too little progesterone, and anyone who feels like they've got raging PMT (which occurs when prog levels are crashing) will be able to identify with that! It's also unfortunate that to make any changes to our regimes involves (or ought to...) yet another trip to the GP. Please can you let us know how your new regime works out?
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jedigirl

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #3 on: March 28, 2015, 05:00:04 PM »

Thanks Freda,
at the moment I will be just reducing my estragel not eliminating it but it has set me thinking and reading up.
Yes the information I've seen so far suggest that especially in peri oestrogen is high and its progesterone that is low, at least until menopause.
Its all so confusing. I just want to be well and if i never heard the hormones again it would be too soon  >:(
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BrightLight

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2015, 07:02:44 PM »

Yes I do think that's my current situation and its how things evolve as hormones decline, progesterone lowers first. Coupled with years of chronic stress which lowers progesterone, I am certain this is what is mainly happening for me.

I'm not treating it with hormones right now and focussing on stress reduction and hope the ratio of estrogen to progesterone gets a bit more balanced. Just lately I have has bad water retention, nausea, sore breasts and according to a private GP I saw my periods indicate low progesterone in terms of the thinner quality and 'breakthrough' bleeding type of flow. Not ovulating is part of this too, maybe, but progesterone being low is my guess.

Whether people are selling products on the back of low progesterone symptoms or not, it makes total sense to me that symptoms can be attributed to the ratio being way out and adding estrogen is not going to help.

Hope you feel better with your new plan
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Annie0710

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2015, 07:14:09 PM »

I'm certain I'm oestrogen dominant AND feeling it

I've been on oestrogen only hrt since age 32, and at 45 developed sudden symptoms which gp didn't help me with.  Now at 48 another set of symptoms added

My oestrogen was low but progesterone was 1 or -1 2 weeks ago

I shall see how my new oestrogen patch works next week as opposed to the tablet I've been using (that's if she prescribed the right dose (forever doubtful of gps)) and If things persist I will look into progesterone too.  I don't have a uterus but I've looked this up and if you need prog to balance your hormones, whether you have a uterus or not, then you need it !
Xx
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Hurdity

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 07:19:48 PM »

Hi jedigirl

There is a lot of confusion about this not helped by, as Freda says, most of the info advocating progesterone supplementation as a way of relieving symptoms - coming from companies that want to sell it to you! Properly conducted placebo controlled trials do not seem to provide the same evidence - I gather results are mixed, and not consistent.

Yes it is the case that once peri-menopause becomes established and you skip periods - then progesterone is missing due to anovulatory cycles. In this case, in the early stages, if there are no symptoms of oestrogen deficiency, then progesterone supplementation ( not cream!) eg through utrogestan (in the second half of the cycle) may well help regulate cycles. Very soon though the oestrogen deficiency symptoms will appear so this needs supplementation too.

Lack of progesterone due to lack of ovulation is only thought to be a problem due to bleeding and lack of it should not give rise to any symptoms. This is where the prog cream companies will have you believe it does!

The pmt symptoms from the prog crashes are due to a reversal of the physiological changes in the body that occur when progesterone reaches high levels in the second half of the menstural cycle, to prepare the body for pregnancy. The most important point about this, is that the negative symptoms are not sustained for more than two or three days once the body has adjusted - so it can't be argued that the body needs progesterone just to stop these symptoms (although I know some women who tolerate it well prefer to take it all the time because of this - ie prevent the pmt), because they disappear quickly!

I can understand the difficulty of any form of HRT during early peri-menopause or the late reproductive phase (when periods are still regular and before peri-menopause properly starts) - because oestrogen levels are still rising and falling normally - and from what I have read, can rise to extreme levels. Because your cycle is still going on, then I can see that sometimes at the pre-ovulatory peak especially, this might be too much - briefly, while your cycle is strong and give rise to symptoms. Two pumps is medium dose and many post-menopausal women have this dose.

Sounds like a good idea to try to supplement with 1 pump for a while and see how you get on. Any oestrogen supplementation requires progesterone if you have a uterus to prevent thicking of the womb lining.

Not sure about the idea of the body trying to expel it? What is "it"? During pregnancy women feel sick when oestrgoen ( and progesterone) levels are increasing rapidly - but these are essential hormones!

The bottom line is - it is unlikely that you would "feel" that you are low on progesterone, (except through increased bleeding) but you do still need it!

Anyway do hope you feel better soon.

Hurdity x

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Hurdity

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 07:24:44 PM »


I'm not treating it with hormones right now and focussing on stress reduction and hope the ratio of estrogen to progesterone gets a bit more balanced.


Stress reduction can only be of benefit - great! However it won't alter the production of progesterone to any significant level - because this is produced by the corpus luteum after ovulation and acts on the uterus lining. The progesterone produced elsewhere in the body (from the adrenals) in the first half of the menstrual cycle and during post-menopause is miniscule compared to the this and the ratio of O to P during these phases is irrelevant. The crucial time that the ration needs to be right is after ovulation to protect the uterus lining. It is the lack of ovulation that disrupts this.

Hurdity x
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BrightLight

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 10:52:15 PM »


I'm not treating it with hormones right now and focussing on stress reduction and hope the ratio of estrogen to progesterone gets a bit more balanced.


Stress reduction can only be of benefit - great! However it won't alter the production of progesterone to any significant level - because this is produced by the corpus luteum after ovulation and acts on the uterus lining. The progesterone produced elsewhere in the body (from the adrenals) in the first half of the menstrual cycle and during post-menopause is miniscule compared to the this and the ratio of O to P during these phases is irrelevant. The crucial time that the ration needs to be right is after ovulation to protect the uterus lining. It is the lack of ovulation that disrupts this.

Hurdity x

I still feel that stress has a role to play in my own personal situation, in combination with anovulation which can be stress related as well.  My GP has advised this to be the case and also that low mood is often because of low progesterone.  The hypothalamus and pituitary are involved and although progesterone only produced in small amounts in ovaries and adrenals when hormonal imbalance is concerned, I think that we are are all individual and whose to say that these small changes in hormone levels wouldn't cause symptoms - I honestly think they do. If estrogen is dominant then the symptoms are due to this ratio being out, whether that's high estrogen or low progesterone doesn't matter, I don't think estrogen should always be added.
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jedigirl

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2015, 07:41:43 AM »

Thanks all,
Hurdity,
I think when the counsellor was explaining my body trying to expel, she meant the excess oestrogen. It makes sense to me as I'm curently at the stage in my cycle when i would be producing my highest levels of oestrogen as well as adding estragel.
Maybe I am low on oestrogen as feel I have probably been in peri a few years now but it is the imbalance between my progesterone level and oestrogen level that is making me feel horrible, with the oestrogen being too high comparatively.
I'm no expert by any means and am open to all advice, I just feel this sounds right for where I am right now.
Annie0710 do you have your levels tested and how? My gp always says " we dont test stuff like that!"
Brightlight, I think you're right that even the smallest imbalance can affect us, maybe some of us are more sensitive than others. I am 7 stone something and petite, with a fast metabolism. I seem to feel every change during my cycle.
Thank you for your input ladies  :thankyou:
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dazned

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2015, 11:32:45 AM »

I think like Hurdity says that low progesterone shouldn't likely be the cause of any symptoms such as low moods etc else women on estrogen only ie no uterus wouldn't be feeling so well would they  :-\
Surely we only have to "suffer" progesterone to protect/or she'd the lining ?
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BrightLight

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2015, 11:34:27 AM »

Jedigirl it seems logical to me that we all have our 'natural' balance where symptoms settle and as you say, both hormones can be low but the ratio be out. It will be great if you have discovered the change to your routine that relieves your symptoms better.

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Hurdity

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 11:50:03 AM »

If high oestrogen in relation to progesterone caused problems - then as dazned says most women who have had hysterectomy would never feel well on HRT. Also most women would feel bad in the first half of their menstrual cycle - when in fact they feel at their best (once bleed etc has finished).

In peri-menopause it is very difficult to feel well all of the time due to the hormone fluctuations and the best you can do is make some sort of intervention/plan for yourself and hope you feel better overall. By the time you've sorted it out you may well be onto the next stage - tough being a woman isn't it! I'm still happy I am one though and wouldn't want to come back as a man - unlike many on here who state this preference!

Hurdity x
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dazned

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 11:54:21 AM »

Hurdity could you have a look at the utrogestron support thread if you have time please and answer some of my question s

Thanks x
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Annie0710

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Re: Progesterone only?
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 12:02:57 PM »

When I had my hysterectomy at 32, my oestrogen plummeted, so 2mg daily did me the world of good. At that time I am sure I was still ovulating because I would get tender breasts (but no other hormonal symptom-ever) and I assume still producing progesterone.  I had a relatively high sex drive and enjoyed it til the end iykwim all was dandy until I was 45 then a huge onset of symptoms, I was never told the results of the blood test just that I was peri and because I am on max dose of oestrogen there's nothing they can do. Then months ago on top of the c£&p way I was feeling ANOTHER lot of symptoms came on.  I looked up my recent ones and it all points to progesterone deficiency/oestrogen dominance

I know I don't need progesterone to protect my uterus but the most recent blood test confirmed my suspicions that my progesterone is or is almost non existent plus I'm not getting tender breasts anymore so I'm guessing I've stopped ovulating

I don't think anyone can go by general rules.  If our bodies are reacting to a deficiency surely it should be supplemented ?
Xx

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