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[honorsmum]

I went to see a reflexologist yesterday, in the hope of helping sort out my insomnia.

We had a long chat about my symptoms, and I said that I felt anxiety was a symptom not the cause (my other symptoms being irregular cycles, palpitations even when relaxed, low blood sugar, change to hair condition and colour, dry skin and nails, low libido, fatigue).
She said that I shouldn't be so quick to assume it was a hormonal issue, but an anxiety issue throwing hormones out and causing all the symptoms.

It's clear reading through many members' experiences here that anxiety is one of the major symptoms during peri/menopause. Some members say that they had experienced anxiety before but nothing like that during menopause. Others say that it came out of nowhere, from previously being confident and outgoing.

So, do hormones cause anxiety...or does anxiety create a hormonal problem?
How does a doctor decide which to treat?

It strikes me that many of the symptoms of thyroid problems, menopause and anxiety cross over - how do you decide what's at the heart of the issue?

[bramble]

I sailed through life with nary a wobble until the menopause hit and I went from 'normal' to having full blown panic attacks and crippling anxiety. So for me, I would say the fluctuating hormones caused it all. But this was pooh-poohed by many medical specialists for years.

Bramble

[CLKD]

 â€¦â€¦.. anxiety is the natural flight or fight response to danger.  This can be caused by various hormones kicking in at the first sign of danger [can't remember any except adrenaline] causing anxiety.  It is an instant response - one either flees the situation [sabre tooth tiger] or fights ….. these responses go back to the Cave Man Days  - knowing these facts doesn't help when it floors me though   

I think a clinical psychologist would explain the above better than I have done.  For me the anxiety is instant, one psychologogyst told me that I HAD to have a thought pattern in order to trigger anxiety.  I never went back to her.  My anxiety hits in the gut followed by weak thighs - so I wouldn't be much good at fleeing or fighting  - then I feel nauseous and start shaking.  All within seconds.

Anxiety does NOT cause a hormonal problem …….. which hormones did this person think were being "thrown out"? 

[honorsmum]

I sailed through life with nary a wobble until the menopause hit and I went from 'normal' to having full blown panic attacks and crippling anxiety. So for me, I would say the fluctuating hormones caused it all. But this was pooh-poohed by many medical specialists for years.

Bramble

Lots of women seem to say the same, Bramble.
It's something I'm really interested in. As I wrote elsewhere, it seems to be accepted that puberty and pregnancy hormones will affect women emotionally, but menopause and certainly peri seems to be treated differently - the emphasis being put on life circumstances causing anxiety, and therefore having an affect on hormones.

I was as happy as I've ever felt at the point my cycles started doing weird things. Then the palpitations started...then the waking up repeatedly through the night...then the fatigue...then the anxiety...then the feeling I was going slightly mad, followed by an increase in palpitations, insomnia,anxiety, night sweats, hunger etc.

I know lots of women are prescribed antidepressants alongside HRT, but have also read that if the mental health symptoms are hormone based, antidepressants won't help.

[CLKD]

"Hormones are your body's chemical messengers. They travel in your bloodstream to tissues or organs. They work slowly, over time, and affect many different processes, including

"Growth and development
Metabolism - how your body gets energy from the foods you eat
Sexual function
Reproduction
Mood

"Endocrine glands, which are special groups of cells, make hormones. The major endocrine glands are the pituitary, pineal, thymus, thyroid, adrenal glands, and pancreas. In addition, men produce hormones in their testes and women produce them in their ovaries.

"Hormones are powerful. It takes only a tiny amount to cause big changes in cells or even your whole body. That is why too much or too little of a certain hormone can be serious. Laboratory tests can measure the hormone levels in your blood, urine, or saliva. Your health care provider may perform these tests if you have symptoms of a hormone disorder. Home pregnancy tests are similar - they test for pregnancy hormones in your urine. ……. "

from: http://www.nlm.nih.gov
 

[Hurdity]

Hi honorsmum

Anxiety is a common (and well known) symptom of menopause - characterised by hormone fluctuations and in particular a gradual loss of oestrogen.

Anyone who first experiences anxiety during the peri-menopausal years (or who has experienced cyclical pre-menstrual anxiety) and with no overwhelming life siutation that could cause this, will do so because of hormone changes, and this should be alleviated by replacing these hormones.

It is tricky during peri-menopause because the hormones are fluctuating more extremely than when women are in their fertile years.

Replacing the hormones at sufficient level should enable you to be able to deal with life's stresses rather than be made anxious and overly worried by them. Many women find that when they eventually reduce their oestrogen dose in HRT after menopause the anxiety symptoms return. Also some women on continuous combined HRT experience anxiety as an unwanted side effect of some synthetic progestogens.

Gynaecologists do not recommend taking anti-depressants as a first option for hormone induced anxiety, when HRT would be preferable.

There is a lot of advice on non chemical/"mindful" ways of controlling anxiety that occurs even when on HRT  (and even if not). Any reduction in stress levels will have a beneficial effect on your general health. Stress causes increases in adrenalin and cortisol but will not cause the symptoms of peri-menopause, although menstrual cycles can be affected by stress too at any age.

Here is some information on anxiety/stress
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/stress-anxiety-depression/pages/understanding-panic.aspx

Yes the whole endocrine system is governed by feedback mechanisms and works in beautiful homeostasis (self-balancing) most of the time. A good doctor will also test levels of thyroid hormones when a woman goes to the doc with peri-menopausal symptoms to do a baseline check, because this gland often starts to decline in mid-life as well.

Hurdity x

[CLKD]

Thanks Hurdity!   I found this too - I take my hormones for granted 

"http://www.hormone.org/hormones-and-health/the-endocrine-system/endocrine-glands-and-types-of-hormones" - reminded me of how my body 'works'/not ……..

[honorsmum]

…….. anxiety is the natural flight or fight response to danger.  This can be caused by various hormones kicking in at the first sign of danger [can't remember any except adrenaline] causing anxiety.  It is an instant response - one either flees the situation [sabre tooth tiger] or fights ….. these responses go back to the Cave Man Days  - knowing these facts doesn't help when it floors me though   

I think a clinical psychologist would explain the above better than I have done.  For me the anxiety is instant, one psychologogyst told me that I HAD to have a thought pattern in order to trigger anxiety.  I never went back to her.  My anxiety hits in the gut followed by weak thighs - so I wouldn't be much good at fleeing or fighting  - then I feel nauseous and start shaking.  All within seconds.

Anxiety does NOT cause a hormonal problem …….. which hormones did this person think were being "thrown out"?

She was talking about the effect of stress on things like the adrenals, thyroid, pituitary gland etc., with the resulting affect on things like cortisol levels.
I understand the way the sympathetic nervous system works, and the whole fight  flight reaction - I am just trying to unravel how anxiety in perimenopause works, in relation to this.

An interesting point to make is that anxiety is noted as a symptom of hypermobility
 - purely as a result of  the way the nervous system is affected by the "set up" of the body in  sufferers. In that case, it has nothing to do with a person's thought pattern, and everything to do with faulty signal being sent by "faulty wiring."

[honeybun]

I was a nervy child but in my late teens really grew out of it. Confident in most things....I have emetophobia.
Got married, had children, lost a child....just got on but as I got into my forties my anxiety increased just a little. Not enough to stop me doing what I wanted to though.
Moved house and had horrendous neighbour problems which coincided with periods stopping and IBS starting. Started HRT and felt so much better and calmer able to cope with anything.

Then follows a couple of panic attacks and here I am three years on and struggling. My stomach is my main problem....any stress and its off for months.
I restrict myself to things I can cope with....forget theatres, eating out,.....put me in a field and I'm happy.

I thought my hormones were fairly stable before my anxiety started, so for me who knows. I was only 51 so they probably weren't.
I think past events have just caught up with me. Loosing a child, hubby having a heart attack and then being diagnosed with the current illness would have tested a stronger person than me.
I once saw a physiologist that told me everyone reacts differently. I was seeking help after my daughter died. He told me that my hubbies heart attack was a direct result of what we had been through and that literally his heart had broken. I'm not sure about that at all but what I do know is we all carry baggage and perhaps in later life it can effect us.

Sorry that turned into a ramble....I'm always trying to figure out the why because then I can maybe figure out how to make things better.


Honeyb
X

[CLKD]

My friend has 'hyper mobility' and it's nowt to do with hormones 

'sympathetic' - that's the bit I forgot ……..

Remembering that food plays an important factor too in anxiety - if our bodies lack sugar/energy then anxiety can kick in.  Suddenly.  Think of athletes who 'hit the wall' during sports.  That sudden drop in energy is awful, for me it was caused by anxiety surges, nausea and weakness.  NAPS advised me to eat every 3 hours to keep my body even - that was 24/7, 12/52.  Emitophobia ruled my Life 24/7 for years, the betablocka helps as it stops the surges …….

It then becomes a self perpetuating circle ……. I recommend 'listening to your body' rather than constantly rationalising.  Keeping a food/mood diary plus any anxiety surges will help.  I work on a 1-5 because 0 is no anxiety and 5 is HIGH 

[honorsmum]

Thanks  Hurdity.

It's all very confusing to me, because the only other time I have experienced anxiety symptoms (as opposed to your everyday "worry" thoughts) was when I was initially ill from Crohn's but being told there was nothing physically wrong with me. Whether  the resulting anxiety was as a result of my thought process or actually a reaction to what was happening physiologically, I can't say.

Likewise, I've seen my GP with peri symptoms, and she says it's anxiety - cause, not symptom. Reflexology suggests the same thing. But as CLKD has said, a gynae would diagnose on symptoms and say perimenopause.

There's obviously a point where anxiety causes anxiety, IYWIM - so what was caused by a physiological change (ie hormone shifts) becomes a mental reaction, ie "I've lost my confidence, I'm too scared to go out on my own"etc) I wonder if it's that the GPs focus on, when they say "it's anxiety"...the symptom, rather than the cause.

[CLKD]

Honorsmum: Did you sail through exams., holiday plans, driving Test -  without anxiety?  I managed being on the stage because my anxiety was dissipated once I got going: I played in the school orchestra and sang in the choir - but going away from my routine has ALWAYS caused anxiety …… usually calmed once I began the journey or arrived at the destination. 

I had Valium 3 days prior to getting married.  Nothing to do with hormones.  Hormones were causing other problems!  Now I have background anxiety daily ……. and it infiltrates my dreams when I am stressed - family, holiday plans, being upset by Mother …….

[honorsmum]

My friend has 'hyper mobility' and it's nowt to do with hormones 

'sympathetic' - that's the bit I forgot ……..

Remembering that food plays an important factor too in anxiety - if our bodies lack sugar/energy then anxiety can kick in.  Suddenly.  Think of athletes who 'hit the wall' during sports.  That sudden drop in energy is awful, for me it was caused by anxiety surges, nausea and weakness.  NAPS advised me to eat every 3 hours to keep my body even - that was 24/7, 12/52.  Emitophobia ruled my Life 24/7 for years, the betablocka helps as it stops the surges …….

It then becomes a self perpetuating circle ……. I recommend 'listening to your body' rather than constantly rationalising.  Keeping a food/mood diary plus any anxiety surges will help.  I work on a 1-5 because 0 is no anxiety and 5 is HIGH 

I know the hypermobility bit was off topic - it just interests me, because my son has it (and is waiting to be tested for EDS) and suffers from palpitations, which appears to be the anxiety part of it; purely physical, not mental. It seems I also have hypermobility. 

Anyway, I didn't want to focus on me, but women generally - I've read other forums for things like thyroid and palpitations, and there seems to be a lot of mention of anxiety in both disorders...which begs the question - cause or affect?

[honorsmum]

Honorsmum: Did you sail through exams., holiday plans, driving Test -  without anxiety?  I managed being on the stage because my anxiety was dissipated once I got going: I played in the school orchestra and sang in the choir - but going away from my routine has ALWAYS caused anxiety …… usually calmed once I began the journey or arrived at the destination. 

I had Valium 3 days prior to getting married.  Nothing to do with hormones.  Hormones were causing other problems!  Now I have background anxiety daily ……. and it infiltrates my dreams when I am stressed - family, holiday plans, being upset by Mother …….

I would say I had normal "worry thoughts" before all the occasions you mention - things like, "I hope it goes well ...Have I done enough revision?...what if I fail?" Etc but never the feeling of impending doom or wanting to run away/vomit/run to the loo!
Don't forget, I performed professionally for years and years.

There is a difference between worry and anxiety, I think - worry can be thoughts without physical feelings, whereas anxiety to me is very much physical.

Lots of posts about peri/meno say that the anxiety follows a very set pattern - worst in the morning, by improving as the day goes on. To me, that suggests very much a chemical reaction, not a mental one.

[honorsmum]

I was a nervy child but in my late teens really grew out of it. Confident in most things....I have emetophobia.
Got married, had children, lost a child....just got on but as I got into my forties my anxiety increased just a little. Not enough to stop me doing what I wanted to though.
Moved house and had horrendous neighbour problems which coincided with periods stopping and IBS starting. Started HRT and felt so much better and calmer able to cope with anything.

Then follows a couple of panic attacks and here I am three years on and struggling. My stomach is my main problem....any stress and its off for months.
I restrict myself to things I can cope with....forget theatres, eating out,.....put me in a field and I'm happy.

I thought my hormones were fairly stable before my anxiety started, so for me who knows. I was only 51 so they probably weren't.
I think past events have just caught up with me. Loosing a child, hubby having a heart attack and then being diagnosed with the current illness would have tested a stronger person than me.
I once saw a physiologist that told me everyone reacts differently. I was seeking help after my daughter died. He told me that my hubbies heart attack was a direct result of what we had been through and that literally his heart had broken. I'm not sure about that at all but what I do know is we all carry baggage and perhaps in later life it can effect us.

Sorry that turned into a ramble....I'm always trying to figure out the why because then I can maybe figure out how to make things better.


Honeyb
X

Don't apologise for anything - it's really interesting to read your experiences. I'm sorry you've had to go through so much.xxx
Talking to the reflexologist yesterday, she said something similar - she suggested that my Crohn's was caused by events that happened to me in the 2 years prior to getting ill; I was carjacked at knifepoint, and then my dad was taken seriously ill and was in intensive care for 6 months before having his machines switched off. I was fine throughout, but the Crohn's started about 9 months later.