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[Judith57]

It is very difficult to protect ourselves against people who are prepared to die for their cause. During the IRA atrocities we were always reminded to look out for suspicious packages but, as in the 7/7 bombings,  the bombers were the bombs. Also, we cannot protect ourselves against machete wielding terrorists as in the Lee Rigby killing, they just stood waiting for the police to turn up. It appears that the Paris gunmen were already very well known to the security services and were on a list of people not allowed entry to the USA but were still able to commit this atrocity. Just seen on SKY news that they had actually dropped off the security service radar.....

It is sad but inevitable that the guardsmen on duty outside our royal palaces have now been moved inside and the ones that do remain outside are protected by armed police

[Limpy]

The level of social injustice experienced by ethnic minorities in France, and Paris in particular (especially in relation to muslims) is huge. 

It doesn't give them the right to go around murdering those who displease them.

[rosebud57]

Absolutely not Limpy.  It's not an excuse, but it is a reason.  Unless social problems are addressed what do you do?  Just watch as more of Frances muslim youth are radicalised. 

Quote from today's Telegraph Editorial :-

"The social conditions that create minds open to radical ideas have to be addressed"

Later it says:-
 "That old ugly prejudice is on the rise again if France, with the result that French Jews are now thought to be the largest immigrant group to Israel.  In 2014 more than 7000 left France, twice the number that did so in 2013  Crucially, the may not only be fleeing Islamism but also the ominous RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT"

The last sentence of the editorial is:- The West must not sacrifice its liberties in vain panic but remain reasonable, free and strong.  At the very least, its moral victory is guaranteed.

[Tabbycat]

I've read several really interesting articles in the wake of the horror in Paris this week, and this was one of the best arguments for satire and the need to live in a world where we can openly criticise and take the piss out of each other (this includes all governments and all religions): http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/01/07/the-blasphemy-we-need/?_r=0

[Rowan]

I can't believe this there is NO reason that can be justified to murder innocent civilians in cold blood anywhere in the world, non at all.

Have we not learned anything from World War 2

Think I will shut up now.

[rosebud57]

Absolutely, no justification at all.  But unless you tackle the root cause of recruitment to terrorist organisations it will just go on and on.

The largest contingent of europeans joining terrorist groups in the Middle East are from France.  That speaks volumes.  It needs to be stopped.  To stop their minds being poisoned there must be ways of making them feel more connected to the communities they come from.

Silverlady I used the word 'reason' in the sense of 'motivation'  NOT 'justification'.  You have totally misunderstood me.

[CLKD]

This Rosebud was my initial reason for beginning the thread, that NO ONE has the 'right' to take the piss out of others - we are trying to teach our children that bullying is not acceptable - satire is bullying.  The late Editor stood and stated that he 'has the right to abuse others' - so that includes rape then?

In a country where the veil is banned ……… and now there is outrage because Muslims feel they are not being heard in France  ……… and have acted as they see fit in a 'free' society, it doesn't make it 'right' to kill others but sadly this mindset goes back into the depths of time …. where does 'the right to freedom' stop? 

I never read 'animal farm'  too scary, too close to the truth ……..

Children disappear from the UK daily - taken 'abroad' to be mutilated as is the Custom of their culture - and because they are as young as 4 years old, no one at customs blinks an eye-lid - so it is that young teens are drawn into the Custom of their culture because these customs are handed down without question.  Pretty similar to across the water sadly, family history becomes a myth in the telling ….. and the anger is perpetuated  without anyone calling a halt to it.  Our history makes our future ……….

[CLKD]

  and now President Obama, our PM and several other European Leaders plan to join the 'march' in France tomorrow …… that is NOT what I pay my Taxes for, why can't they keep a low profile and stand quietly in their own homes  ……. this isn't about solidarity, this is about being 'seen': the French Police have already stated that they can hardly deal with the expected crowds without the added worry of celebrities attending 

STAY AT HOME ……… organise a support meeting in your own village, light a candle but don't go to Paris

[rosebud57]

I'm very much in favour of 'free speech'.  As the saying goes (or something like it) 'I hate what you're saying but I defend your right to say it'. 

However, with the right to freedom of speech comes HUGE responsibility.  We must balance it with 'human rights' and respect.

There is a big danger that the whole tragedy will be hijacked by the far right in France.  Lets hope there is no trouble and the marches. 

[CLKD]

Thank you Rosebud.  There's also a saying that infers that by remaining quiet allows 'stuff' to happen  but I can't remember …..

[Limpy]

satire is bullying


I never read 'animal farm'  too scary, too close to the truth ……..

Don't agree that satire is bullying - it's trying to provoke comment / change. Is that not allowed?

"Satire is a genre of literature, and sometimes graphic and performing arts, in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, corporations, government or society itself, into improvement"

How can you say "Animal Farm" is too scary if you've not read it?

[Dulciana]

I don't think satire should be aimed at issues that other cultures are deeply sensitive about.   We wouldn't like it in reverse with issues that we hold dear.

[Tabbycat]

This Rosebud was my initial reason for beginning the thread, that NO ONE has the 'right' to take the piss out of others - we are trying to teach our children that bullying is not acceptable - satire is bullying. 

CLKD, satire is not bullying. Bullying is attacking an individual; satire is highlighting ridiculous and outmoded beliefs, crass politicians and (often extremely harmful) stupidity. If we cannot ridicule and criticise, then we do not live in a democracy.

You've just posted on a public forum that children disappear from the UK on a daily basis, "to be mutilated as is the custom of their culture". Now, someone of that culture might be "offended" by your remarks - you called their custom "mutilation". Should you therefore keep your comments to yourself because it "offends" someone? Or should you voice your anger at this practice?

No-one has the right to not be offended, because being offended is subjective and  really just means "I don't agree with you".

Bottom line: is someone's religion so fragile that it can't withstand a bit of criticism?

[Limpy]

I don't think satire should be aimed at issues that other cultures are deeply sensitive about.   We wouldn't like it in reverse with issues that we hold dear.

The thing is that some people find religion, all religion, deeply offensive.
Where this is the case, perhaps satire is a gentler way of expressing disagreement than saying outright "this is a load of ........" The cartoons were mocking Islam weren't they?

[Rowan]

Dave Allen always ended his very funny jokes and sketches aimed at all religions and denominations with

"May your God go with you"

This was in the sixties and seventies.

Quote

 "His baffled humanity, his perplexity in the face of life's mysteries and irritations, are the qualities that make him such a fine and sometimes moving comedian. He's a blaspheming atheist on the side of the angels." 

No one was shot dead because of him I am sure.