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[Echinacea]

Hi ladies,

Really could do with some opinions on this!
I am two years since my last period (June 2014), and have become increasingly depressed.  I do have a history of depression, but had not been too bad in recent years. But I now feel almost suicidal at times.  I cannot stop crying, finding it difficult to even go out (in case I see anyone I know and cry), feel tired, no joy in anything etc etc.

I have had a lot to cope with so far this year, including a fractured vertebrae and a diagnosis of osteoporosis.  I have tried the medication but it made me ill, so have now been referred to the clinic for a yearly infusion, which I am dreading.

Anyway, have seen the psychiatrist today, who maintains that this depression is NOT menopausal.  I was hoping he would say it is, and then I would know there was a reason for feeling so bad, and that it would eventually go!  I still do feel, though that it could be?

He said that the depression at menopause is usually within the first two years.  I should be getting better now!  He reckons it's all to do with the osteoporosis diagnosis and the fracture (which was pretty painful and took ages to heal).
Any one got any thoughts on that? 

I am using just a low dose of Estradot for vulvodynia, and am progesterone intolerant, so no proper dose of HRT is an option.
If anyone else has felt the same at this time, please post?
Also, has anyone else had the yearly infusion?
Thanks so much in anticipation of replies!
Echinacea

[Dancinggirl]

Hi Echinacea
So sorry to hear about your problems. I have suffered periods of depression and it is so debilitating. Dealing with the long term issues around osteoporosis is horrible and I wouldn't be at all surprised if it caused you to be depressed - and with good reason.  A friend of mine having just emerged from the full treatment fro breast cancer has now bee diagnosed with advanced stage osteoporosis and she's only 55!!!! She's just had her first intravenous dose of the drug I think you are referring to - I don't know how she is feeling.
What treatment did the psychiatrist suggest? Are you worried about trying ADs?
Why are you using Estrodot for Vulvodynia? Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this an oestrogen patch that should go together with some progesterone? I would have thought that local oestrogen like Vagifem would be safer and more appropriate for your condition?
Hopefully others will be along with advice and help.
DG x

[Hurdity]

Hi Echinacea

Sorry to hear your ongoing problems and how low you are feeling.

My first thoughts are - I understand psychiatrists are notoriously unlikely to attribute depression or any similar symptoms to menopause or hormones. Have you read Prof Studd's views on this?

If you go to his home page here: http://www.studd.co.uk/ you will see lots of tabs on the left about depression - post-natal depression, reproductive depression, hormones and depression, osteoporosis and depression etc. When you open up the tab another menu opens on the right with lots more info under that topic. His view is that oestrogen deficiency is the root cause of many female depression conditions.

I am not an expert but although you say you have suffered depression in the past, if you haven't been too bad in recent years, then perhaps it could be that the menopause has meant you are less able to cope with your depressive feelings?

At the risk of telling an expert he is wrong I would venture to say he could be re menopause and depression. If oestrogen deficiency is the cause of your depression, then for the next two or so years following the last period, oestrogen levels fall until they reach their all time low - and at this point some women notice menopausal symptoms worsening or kicking in at this point. This could be what you are experiencing but perhaps more extremely than some of us.

Your hormones will have stopped fluctuating but your oestrogen levels will be likely to be low. The fact that you have osteoporosis also indicates that they are very low.

I can't remember how old you are - although this is immaterial but I really feel you need to try to find a way to take HRT and so that you can minimise the amount of time you are on the progesterone.

Can you get a referral to a menopause clinic so that you can try an HRT using "natural" progesterone on a longer cycle and so that it is sufficient to protect your womb? I would have thought your fragile state of mind would be sufficient for such a referral. You do need this - to me it sounds as though you need a full hormonal blood test - including for testosterone (deficiency of which has been linked to low mood) and I presume you've had a scan? In your position can you afford to go privately if necessary rather than wait - depends where you are in the country.

I do hope you are being treated for your depression right now and you have people you can talk to about your feelings - please I urge you to - on the phone if necessary.

Take care

Hurdity 

[CLKD]

I had depression a few hours before each period began, that's how I knew if it was coming on early: I would hear a piece of music and would sob and sob and next morning ……….

So depression can be hormonally based: PMT, post natal ………. The Pill made me depressed.  I have organic as well as clinical/situational depression.

Was your depression treated with medication before or have you been taking an AD?  Do you pay privately for the Consult, therefore the Medic gets paid for prescribing?

Your Psychiatrist may be trying to ease your feelings but depression can be caused by particularly anything under the sun  ………. really it's not what is causing the depression but how it is treated.  Getting stable is important, helps sufferers see 'the wood for the trees' 

[Echinacea]

Hello ladies, Thank you for your prompt replies - so nice of you.

Will try and answer the best I can.
Dancinggirl - so sorry to hear about your friend - what a horrible situation she is in.  I do hope she recovers from all the turmoil soon.
You are right, the diagnosis of osteoporosis is depressing.  My mother had the condition severely, and I am well aware of what is coming if I do not have the treatment!  However, it frightens me as I am very medication intolerant.
I am only 56, and this all came out of the blue, fracturing a vertebrae just lifting something (well, it was heavy...as OH keeps reminding me).

As for AD's.  I have a long history of depression, and have, over the years, tried, at the last count, 20 or more of the medications.  They all make me very, very ill.  It is a long story, won't bore you with the detail, but it was discovered that I have a herniated brain (gasp, yes).  The AD's caused such bad headaches that eventually I had a MRI brain scan.  The brain has shifted down slightly and it causes pressure headaches.  Therefore, medication that changes fluid balance in the body is not allowed.  Therefore, I have had to manage without AD's, which is awful when in the grip of a really bad episode.

It is for the same reason HRT is not an option.  I cut an estradot patch in quarters, and have a scan every 3 months to check the lining of the womb.  This does seem to keep the vulvodynia in check.

So you see, I really do feel lousy at the moment, worse than I have for a very long time.  I really want to think that it is hormonal.  I think when we are depressed we want to attach a reason.

Hurdity, Thank you for the link - I have looked at this before, but never really taken the time to read properly, so will do.  Unfortunately, as I have said, I cannot take HRT, but did not realise the link between osteoporosis and low oestrogen.  I am under a gynaecologist, so I think I will speak to him about this.  I will see him in September.  I do have a very patient, understanding husband, so things could be worse.  Will also ask about the testosterone.  I did not think we could have that in this country?

CLKD - thank you for your comments too, think I agree, in hindsight that depression has many causes, but the hormones are massive players.
I must say to all of you, I feel supported and a little better for all your kind comments, and caring sentiments.  Thank you
Echinacea

[Aethelede]

Hi Echinacea, my mum has had the infusions and from what she has said they were ok, not painful or anything. She is 84 and has Parkinson's, not had any fractures - but is prone to falls. She didn't dread going for the infusions and it was less medication to be on. 

[Echinacea]

Thank you for your replies today.

I did go to the osteoporosis clinic, and discussed my concerns with the consultant.
They offered me a 6 monthly injection, quite a new drug, but less hassle than the infusion.  It has a different mode of action to the infusion and tablets, but the end result is much the same.  Anyway, I agreed and had the injection just over 2 weeks ago.
The next day I woke feeling like I had been run over by a steam roller, then I had flu like symptoms, cystitis, sore throat....however, things seem to be settling a bit now.  All the things I got are listed in the side effects, including back pain, which is really bad at the moment.  Next injection is booked for January, so I will see how things go.
The depression is still ongoing unfortunately.  Am hoping that will run it's course soon!
I am glad to hear of people who have had success with these treatments, as the side effects can be rough!
I will post again to let you ladies on this site know how this goes, as this is newish, but is now being offered as an alternative to the infusion.
The side effects list makes depressing reading, so do try not to think about that too much! 
Echinacea

[Trey]

Just a thought....I have used Siberian Ginseng as something to give me a real lift in energy and spirit. I am super reactive to drugs and take very few.  So I take the capsule and dump out probably 4/5ths of it.  It really helps and I think it might be worth a try.  In all my years as a registered nurse, I don't remember hearing anything bad except that at full dose it can give one quite a rush.  The other kind of ginseng does absolutely nothing for me.  Something like erethero or some similar name is the other kind.  It's very inexpensive.  Best wishes. 

[Echinacea]

Thank you Trey.
I will definitely go and get some siberian ginseng tomorrow and give it a go!  I will try anything at moment...
Echinacea

[CLKD]

Have you discussed your 'brain' with a neuropsychologist since diagnosis?  Not being able to take ADs would have me crawling under the blankets ……… do you get enough sunshine as this can brighten mood generally.  Is your depression organic or clinical? if hormone driven then it's organic 

Keep posting!

[Echinacea]

Hello CLKD
Yes, am struggling to function at the moment.  It is really awful, and the hopelessness of not being able to take ADs to help is beyond, well, can't describe. Where would I find a neuropsychologist.  I have seen neurosurgeons etc, as brain surgery was discussed but it was decided the risks outweighed the possible gains.
I don't know about the depression - have been diagnosed with recurrent depressive disorder (clinical) but hormones have never been discussed.  If I have mentioned it, they say that it is not that.

I do get as much sunshine as I can, but nothing seems to help at the moment.
I actually fear for my marriage now, as I am such a miserable *** to live with!
Echinacea

[CLKD]

Clinical/situational depression is usually due to past situations, current problems or the fact we can't see a way out of life as it is.  Organic depression is caused by a lack of serotonin etc..  I have both.

A neuropsychologist can do various tests and help patients find coping strategies.  When did you last see your Surgeon?  Maybe AD medication has improved significantly that you could take tablets to ease the depression. Certainly I think your Surgeon should be brought up to date with your depressive illness, you need a quality of Life!

Is your GP aware of your fragile state, perhaps a Community Psychiatric Nurse could be available to call on you at home, also have you approached MIND for support? 

What would surgery have achieved?  What were the 'risks'?  There may now be a surgeon who would be keen to take on your case.

Let us know how you get on!

Time to talk with your husband and ask how he feels in the current situation. DO NOT assume that he is thinking the same as you are, depression + no communication = guilt.

[Echinacea]

Thank you CLKD.
I last saw the neurosurgeon last year.  The condition I have is rare, and there is no treatment, only risky surgery.  I decided  against it. 
I do see a psychiatrist every 6 months and have a CPN who visits occasionally. This was organised when I had to come off AD's.  The last few years I have had to learn to deal with the depressive episodes without medication, and I find that really hard.  The impact on my life has been massive.  I manage, but cannot work or cope with stress very well.  Now the menopause has just about been the icing on the cake...I also have vulvodynia to cope with.
I do talk to husband, who tries to understand.  He is very good, but can only take so much!  So I do try, but it is hard to hide.
Nothing for it , but to just keep going, as they say!  I keep hoping for a miracle... maybe they do happen!
Echinacea

[CLKD]

Every 6 months, in my opinion as a depression sufferer, is not often enough.  Your CPN should visit weekly.  How risky would ADs actually be? quality of Life is important particularly when meno hits.  Is it a 'condition' that would alter during menopause for the better so that you could take meds.?

Your husband needs to understand that without medication you are less likely to function fully at times, that this isn't a fault of his nor can you do anything about it.  Perhaps a buzz word to share when needed, then you/he know when to duck ;-). 

Have a look at the MIND web-site to see if you can get support from the Charity.  Is your GP aware of how fragile you are?

[Echinacea]

Hi CLKD,

Thanks for your reply.  AD's, cause pressure build up in my head, and extreme, debilitating headache, sickness, etc.  This is why I had to stop them, and was what led to my diagnosis being found.  I cannot take any pharmaceuticals.
It will not change, and has nothing to do with the menopause. It took me a long time to understand and accept the condition, but there really is nothing that can be done.  There are others I have spoken to via the internet, mainly in America, but those who have had surgery have not had good outcome.

My husband does try to understand...I just feel so guilty that I am not like other women.  Most women I know are so capable, work etc. Hubby says he is not going anywhere, I just know he gets fed up (understandably)!

As for my GP...at my last appointment he was satisfied that I was not going to take a long walk off a short pier, reminded me that I have had episodes in the past and I will get over it again...really helpful!  However, if you can't take the meds, what can they do? I have had all the usual therapy etc...the rest is up to me!  He did say that sometimes depression does ease as people get older...so I'm waiting!
I take it that you have suffered for years? 
Echinacea