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[Rowan]

Well said Silverfairy 

[Rowan]

Thank you for the link Silverfairy, I already subscribe the their newsletter

[Hurdity]

This is obviously a controversial topic but it is absurd to deny the importance of the role of science, and the benefits of oestrogen!

I agree there is a huge amount we don't know but we wouldn't be discussing any of this if it wasn't for science (the info on this site wouldn't be here) - and I know I've said this before but it is crucial to distinguish between the experience of one individual and the results of trials involving populations or groups of individuals.

You cannot predict how you will react to a given treatment based on one person's account, nor even from results of trials.

The former is very interesting - I enjoy reading about what women have tried and find works for them. But you can never say, that if it works, it was because of what they took, partly because you don't know how they would have reacted had they not taken the substance. Also because - as shown by trials, in many cases placebos (where subjects don't know whether they are taking the treatment or a pill/cream with nothing in it) work very well too.

Many of us on here actually find science far from tedious - but very interesting! I freely admit I am one of them (in case no-one had guessed!!!).

Most of us would like to take an informed view of treatments and not just take everyone's suggestions and spend a lot of time and money doing experiments on ourselves to see if it works for us too. So - the individual women's experiences are interesting, and the science tells us what works or not for larger numbers of women, and crucially whether it is safe or not.

The trick is to know whether what you are reading has been validated or is outdated or not - because a lot of what is on the internet is tosh! We have a job on our hands to decipher it all. Some of us find it easier to do this than others and share what we've found.

Oestrogen is essential to how our body functions and the deficiencies are well documented.  Progesterone is too (essential) but as far as I understand from leading authorities in the field, does not lead to serious health conditions post-menopause if it is not replaced in its own right.

Hurdity x

[Sarah2]

I don't think anyone is meaning to be intentionally negative or unkind to someone who has found something she thinks works- I'm not!

But there are lots of people who read the forum as 'lurkers' and it's important to show both sides to discussions- which is only fair comment!

There are several references on the web to how progesterone cream made from yams and sold by mail order cannot be converted into the type of progesterone which is in a pharmaceutical product. If it was and IF it worked, it could be dangerous because people would be self-administering, the dose would not be measurable or uniform throughout the cream, and progesterone is also linked in some studies to blood clots ( see the info in the packs of Utrogestan, Northisterone, etc.)

I can't quite understand why some manufacturers are selling estriol and progesterone- regardless of the ingredients (I've checked these on one site)  by mail order? Either they are not the 'real thing' as found in prescription-only products, or they are - in which case it's highly dangerous for anyone to self-medicate with powerful hormones.

The instructions for estriol from one such company suggest rubbing it on the chest!!! Anyone using prescribed oestrogen gel knows this is not the way to use it and potentially dangerous.

Similarly, they suggest using the progesterone cream as we would use prescription progesterone- for several days of a cycle to bring on  a bleed. This is highly unethical because again- if it really worked it could be dangerous and if it didn't work it's mis-selling.


This is NOT the same as someone using a product given by their dr and being monitored, which is what suzyq is doing.

Much of what is on the web is written by journalists or even minor celebrities, and of course the manufacturers of the products, who have done a tiny bit of research and cobbled together a piece which ends up as a summary- and not always an accurate summary- of the research. Many of these health sites do this- I know, as I know people in the business who write them!

Not everyone who reads these sites does their own thorough research and they are vulnerable to the advertising of products.

The danger is not that people are using complementary treatments - of which there are some that are excellent- but that they are believing 'pseudo science' some of the time, which could cause them harm, or other people reading of their experiences who try the same thing.

[carrs]

Thank you hurdity and Sarah and the others for the interesting debate. I was appalled to see there are no UK national guidelines yet. It's a neglected area, and everything's hit and miss. Even the doctors mostly use guesswork. The latest advice I had was that the current treatment I was using probably no longer suited me, which is fair enough, but doesn't tell me why? I would welcome some proper trials in this subject.

[Rowan]

I will continue using progesterone cream(not wild yam cream it contains progesterone USP, I use a very very small amount of estrogen too)  and supplements , because  it works for me.

I have no side effects and I feel well, I am ten years post menopause and my doctor tells me to continue with what I am doing because it is working. That is good enough for me.

I pride myself on knowing what is "tosh" or not. I read read read, also paying out for rather expensive Text books too, they are available on amazon.

[SilverFairy]

Silverlady, were you ever on a combined HRT? If so, what side effects, if any, did you have, that you don't get on progesterone on its own?

[Rowan]

I was on it before my hyst, hated it and was not on it for long, my problem was too much estrogen, hence the hyst for a very large fibroid that two surgeons opinions said would not shrink with menopause, I was 52.

After my hyst I used a very low dose estrogen patch, when I was 56 I stopped taking it for two years., it cause weight gain and enlarged breasts, I lost weight and had no symptoms and felt fine, to be honestly I only started taking it again because of the health benefits, since then I have learned there is an awful lot more to a womans health then taking estrogen, which can be friend and foe.

After my breast reduction (caused by too much estrogen) I wanted nothing that would cause my beasts to grow, I gradually reduced my estrogen to half and stated using progesterone cream, that's where I am now. I have talked much about estrogen on MM but not too much that I was using progesterone cream as well ( along with supplements which I think are most important also don't drink or smoke) as it was always met with it being discredited.

I don't have VA, never suffered from that, no health problems, excepts some allergies, have had nine blood tests this year all coming back normal, anything else is normal aging that men and women can have.

This my story, every woman's is different.
Forgot to say my DR knows I use progesterone cream she is fine with it.

It this sort of information that worries me

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12225625, as I have posted on the "Other Health Issues"   

[SilverFairy]

Thank you Silverlady, I very much appreciate you sharing that

My symptoms pre HRT were hot flushes, mood swings and dry lady bits  The first two went with the combined HRT but I still don't have them with the progesterone only (although admittedly have only been on the latter 10 days)
I was given Gynest and Ovestin for the dryness but they do not seem to have solved the problem as I should only have to apply it 2 x weekly by now, but still need it daily.

The lady on the website says that the progesterone should deal with the dryness, maybe it needs more time? Or do I ask the GP to prescribe Utrogestan vag capsules? Would that deal with all my symptoms?
Hmmm ever more questions!!

[Sarah2]

I don't think there is any evidence that progesterone helps vaginal dryness. The receptors in the vaginal lining/cells which are responsible for lubrication and vaginal health are there for oestrogen uptake.
You may need to use systemic HRT as well as localised HRT to feel the full benefit vaginally, as some of us do.

Progesterone, taken as the mini Pill for instance, thickens cervical mucus, can increase body temperature ( as it does after ovulation) and can alter the acidity of the vagina making it more susceptible to thrush - none of which most meno women need!!

Have you tried using the creams for maybe 4 weeks, daily, then 2 x a week?

The website you mention is a site which sells a product. Ask yourself if the answers to any questions will, by and large, promote the products they sell. There are lots of website on health which are 'dressed up' as offering medical advice, but they are really no more than a shop window for products they sell, or gain income from, by advertising products for other companies.

If you have a look at the actual amount of progesterone in those products it is a tiny amount. They promote it as 'over the counter' HRT. It's irresponsible of them to suggest it can bring on a bleed. Do they get away with it because they aim it at women in the peri-menopause who are probably having a period anyway- regardless of whether they use that pot of cream!

Sorry- bit of a rant, but just feel quite strongly about products that are not all they seem but vulnerable women fall for the advertising rather than seeing a gynaecologist.
 But maybe talk to your dr?

[Rowan]

I get my progesterone from amazon which has 614 reviews

Each tube contains 60 grams (2 oz) of cream and 2,000mg progesterone
Natpro cream has a concentration of 3.33% progesterone or 33.33 milligrams per gram. 

Your body before menopause, and after ovulation would have made 20-30 mgs a day until menstruation.

Serenity cream has over 5.000) likes, that should tell you something.

Silverfairy You say that your dryness did not go with Combined HRT ( but took care of hot flushes and mood swings) nor with with Gynest and Ovestin.

Maybe asking your Dr for vagifem along with the progesterone of your choice may solve the dryness problem.

When you say "Graves" this means that you have an auto immune disease of the thyroid, there is an interaction between the thyroid and estrogen  which stimulates the immune system,  progesterone tends to dampen down the immune system which might be why you get on better with it. Another example of estrogen and the immune system is that estrogen can make asthma and allergies worse where as progesterone can help.

Progesterone has to have this effect in pregnancy as an immune suppressant  so that the body does not see the foetus as a foreign body and reject it.

I don't know what your other health problems are so cannot comment on them, but hope this maybe of use.

[Sarah2]

2000mgs is the same as 200mgs x 10 days of progesterone as is Utrogestan.
Just for comparison, that is less than the amount women using it as part of HRT would use in one month ( unless deviating from the prescribed amount.)

Regardless of how or why you use it, I think it is unethical for the company to make unfounded statements- such as it helps with osteoporosis when the NOS has studied this in depth and says not.

[SilverFairy]

I note that Vagifem contains a different type of oestrogen to the other two, it may make a difference? (Estriol as opposed to Estradiol)
Apparently, Oestrogen binds with something (<- scientific term!)  which will cause you to become more hypo if you have under active problems. Graves makes you over active, so I may now need to up my anti thyroid medication to make sure I dont go too far the other way. That wont be a problem, my Endo is currently humouring me as I am adamant I am not having my thyroid removed or nuked! as I will still suffer from Graves.

[Rowan]

silverfairy they do say vagifem (estrodiol) is confined to the vaginal area, but some say it does goes systemic. I do see your quandary as far as estrogen is concerned.

Have you tried alternative methods to treat vaginal dryness, many women cannot use hormones for this problem due to medical reasons or even because don't want to.

You might get some ideas from this forum  http://www.menopausematters.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,140.0.html

Vitamin E and the omega oils moisturise the body from within even vitamin E  vaginal suppositories may help.

Hope you can find something that helps, it might need a many pronged approach, using estrogen will always be a balancing act for you, but it does look as if your Endo is backing you.

[Rowan]

http://womeninbalance.org/resources-research/progesterone-bone-health/

I will continue using my progesterone cream with my small amount of estrogen (partial hyst) along with my supplements for bone health.