Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Trey]

Biodentical hormone therapy is US is confusing.  To me, the estrogen patches are bio identical and well-tested, but the compounding pharmacies and so called experts pushing these pharmacies are suspect, again, to me.  I once took Premarin tabs,which are not bio identical but are synthetic using horse urine and they were totally successful for me, but I had side effects of sore boobs and twenty pounds extra weight.  When I stopped them abruptly, I almost immediately got a prolapsed bladder.  Not one women I know who has had a hyst and is on Premarin has a prolapse.  I moderate a prolapse forum so am fairly aware of this complication.  However, you could not pay me to go back on Premarin because I am afraid of the long term effects.  I was on it from 41 to 61.  I switched to the patch, which helped my prolapse quite a bit, alone with an estradiol cream and will be on it for life.  To me, the estradiol patch and cream are impossible for me to live without.  I look ten years younger than I am, and feel I am healthier than most.  If I forget a patch, I know it so.  I will always feel that our bodies have not had time to mutate in ways to match our greatly increased life expectancy following our child bearing years.  I do get a mammogram every 12-18 months and almost expect I will eventually get breast cancer.  My mother is 97 and is still on Premarin and did get the safest form of breast cancer at 84 and her oncologist told her she could go back on Premarin and she has had no recurrence.

I think it is an individual decision, but my last three gynecologists have said they themselves would be on it forever.  I feel and know that estrogen affects so many body functions,including brain, so I am willing to take the risk.  As I say this my young neighbor has just had a second surgery for aggressive breast cancer.  I don't know what form of estrogen she has been on.

[Rowan]

I can vouch that you look much more then ten years younger Trey, would like to include myself too.

We all need estrogen all our lives from puberty onwards.

Patch and cream and Gel are the best way, even better when you have had a hysterectomy. I am able to dose according to how I feel without worrying about protecting a womb.

I think even using a tiny amount of estrogen is better then none along with a good healthy life style and supplements.

 

[Joyce]

Limpy I took at bedtime, didn't work until PM. Guess I slept off any effects.

HB, I'm such a chatterbox! 

[devonhil]

Trey

that's really good to hear that you are a long-term user. It seems that for a lot of people on this forum that their GPs opt for a "couple of years on HRT to see you through then off again" and then they're left in the lurch and still with the return of lots of unpleasant symptoms.

I agree that we all need estrogen (amongst other hormones) for life. From an evolutionary point of view, women weren't designed to live much past menopause.  As life expectancy has only really soared (for most women) over the last 100 years, so hormone deficiency has become much more of an issue. Plenty of us have 40+ post-menopause years and that's a long time to be hormone-deficient and feeling lousy.

I appreciate there are risks but then risks seem to increase for everything as we get older - with or without HRT. Feeling better (and looking better from the sound of it! ) are important too.

It's very encouraging that there are women like you who can and do choose to keep taking hormones on the other side of the menopause. It seems that HRT should not necessarily be considered a simple aid for 'getting through the menopause' but as a whole-life option for those who make an informed decision to keep using it.

hil x

[Meg]

Well said.  Many docs in UK do not seem savvy re HRT and many will not prescribe, especially to women they consider too old but who are symptomatic.

Meg

[andius]

Cubagirl:

Just wanted to let you know that my dad who is 84 has taken nortryptiline and gabapention for about 25 yrs every day for painful neuropathy of his feet.  He is not a diabetic and they don't know why he has this.
He also takes blood pressure medication.  He is fine and not groggy and for years drank 2 martinis every night, but hasn't in the last 10 years or so.  He said the gabapentin kept him up at night!! He still drives on 4-5 hour trips , goes to grocery etc....very active.

I have taken gabapentin for a back problem for pain in the past for about 5 years and had no side effects at all.  When I stopped it a couple of years ago, there were no withdrawal symptoms.

Gabapentin is excreted mostly unchanged, so other then some people getting groggy,  it doesn't have much in the way of side effects. If you need to take it for pain, it is probably better than taking a lot of pain relievers long term as it doesn't affect the stomach or liver. Adding a low dose of amitrip/nortriptyline with it is very common practice in the US in neurologic illness associated with pain.

Please don't be afraid to take it if you really need it.

Andius

[devonhil]

Andius,

that is a really good point about the effect of long-term pain-killer use on the liver. It is definitely a factor which needs considering when comparing ADs and other pain relief for chronic conditions

your dad sounds amazing by the way!

hil

[Joyce]

Interesting Andius. Thanks.

[Hurdity]

I agree that we all need estrogen (amongst other hormones) for life. From an evolutionary point of view, women weren't designed to live much past menopause.  As life expectancy has only really soared (for most women) over the last 100 years, so hormone deficiency has become much more of an issue. Plenty of us have 40+ post-menopause years and that's a long time to be hormone-deficient and feeling lousy.

I'm not sure about this devonhil

I haven't looked at the stats but I remember reading somewhere that our lifespan has not changed much in the past X years, but as you rightly say our life expectancy has changed dramatically. There is a difference between the two.

I had a quick trawl and here is one statement from US Nartional Institute on Ag(e)ing:

There are "two kinds of life span. One is maximum life span, the greatest age reached by any member of a species. In humans this is 120 years, we think. The other is average life span, the average age reached by members of a population. Life expectancy, the number of years an individual can expect to live, is based on average life spans.

Average life span and life expectancy in the United States have
grown dramatically in this century, from about 47 years in 1900 to
about 75 years in 1990. This advance is mostly due to improvements
in sanitation, the discovery of antibiotics, and medical care. Now, as
scientists make headway against chronic diseases like cancer and
heart disease, some think it can be extended even further.

Maximum human life span seems to be another matter. There is no
evidence that it has changed for thousands of years despite fabled
fountains of youth and biblical tales of long-lived patriarchs.
However, very recently, the dream of extending life span has shifted
from legend to laboratory. As gerontologists explore the genes, cells,
and organs involved in aging, they are uncovering more and more of
the secrets of longevity. As a result, life extension may now be more
than the stuff of myth and the retardation of disease and disability,
realistic goals."

I would say from an evolutionary point of view we are designed to live past menopause. Natural selection - through survival of the fittest - will favour any women who lives long enough to raise her last child, because her children are more likely themselves to survive and reproduce.

However - that doesn't alter the truth of what you say - we may well live more than a third of our lives in an oestrogen deficient state and for many of us - if restoring our oestrogen levels a little improves our quality of life for most of those, then we are prepared to take the risk of sacrificing a few years of our own lifespan.....

A civilised forward thinking society will recognise that this choice is and should be ours 
(just wanted to use one of the santa smileys!)

Hurdity x

[devonhil]

Hurdity

you're absolutely right - sloppy writing on my part!

I think the main point to be made is that very little data is available on the consequences (good and bad) of HRT in later post-menopausal women - 10/20+ years after menopause. Probably as most women are encouraged to come off HRT around 60. Without any hard clinical data, the risk-factors touted for avoiding longer term HRT are based purely on extrapolating data from younger women and not on assessed clinical results for this older age group.

hil

[latefortysomething]

Hello,
Just wanted to add my experiences and thoughts here.  I have not had a period for a few months now, the doctors conclusion all 4 of them is that at 51 depression is to blame.  My blood test results back in July suggested that I had a much younger physiology for someone of my age.  Yet the  peri symptoms are awful  I was given femostan 1/10  by GP, (reluctant to give me hrt), and it did not help.  I went back and said as much, and was told, the same thing "you are young and depressed", that's all..  well at 51 I may look young (most think I'm around 35 years old, on accounf of being small).  I am bashing my head against a brick wall.  The missed periods and peri symptoms came before the depression which has been bad, as hair has been falling out again!
I cannot believe those so called doctors who infer that the menopause is a physchological illness, how on earth can this be possible it is a physical event, the female bodie's reproductive system calls time.  Are they suggesting that hormones do not play apart? Are they stupid?  Is the earth flat?  I am fed up of their incessant panning of of AD's on people, fine if it works, but how do you stop taking them.
It's like these doctors who suggest that ECT is helpful,a revival from the 50's. 
I am sorry but some doctors are convinced that depression is the cause of all ills, not the other way around.  I have a friend who's thyroid was so bad, she was suicidal, thankfull she was taken seriously by a good doctor and treated, and guess what her depression has gone.

I'll finish my rant, by saying that the NHS is trying to save cash, I wonder how many patients who visit their gPS' walk away with prescriptions for AD's?  I would be interested to know.

If AD's work as an interim solution for peri phase for some, that's great.  But the menopause is vey much a physical thing, understatment.

I am just fed up with GP's in practices....grrrrr.

LFS

[bev567901]

LFS I could have written that, I am 51 & same as you blood test showing an FSH of 2. I have no hormone meds just an AD, diazepam & sleeping tablets. I know these are acting as a crutch & not helping 100% although I think I did get down having felt ill for so many months. I am not depressed though. This is hormonal I know it, its like the way you feel before a period only all month. Frustrating is not the word I get quite angry about it at times xxx

[Taz2]

Hi bev - a level of 2 is extremely low - even in young, fertile women. Have you ever been investigated regarding this. There is a condition of the pituitary gland which leads to a deficiency in sex hormones I believe.

Taz x 

[devonhil]

LFS - I empathize so much with what you're going through.

I think GPs are trained to treat depression as an isolated illness. Whilst it can be of course, it usually isn't independent if accompanied by a large number of menopause-type symptoms!

I do think medicine is the wrong way round. Doctors are trained to treat symptoms and not causes. i.e. symptom = depression, treatment = AD and symptom = aching joints, treatment = anti-inflammatories. Instead a more enlightened approach would be "here are a range of symptoms including depression and aching joints, what could be causing them?" With that way of thinking more doctors would see that the cause is probably hormonal and the entire list of symptoms may well respond to a single treatment - in this case HRT.

It is incredibly frustrating how much happier GPs are to prescribe ADs to HRT. Why are so many convinced of the efficacy and safety of ADs? It really scares me how readily they are handed out.

hil

[latefortysomething]

Hello,
Firstly Bev, I really feel for you, sounds similar to myself and it is rotten.  I had blood tests at meno clinic that showed a relatively high FSH, 22 - 24, well high-ish, and low levels of oestrogen, yet  1 year down the line GP blood test showed an FSH of around 5.  It was explained to me that not all FSH peptides are measured, frequently in peri stage, blood tests can vary so much, all they provide are a snapshot of circulating levels of hormones at any one point in time.  There is so much more to this. 
I know that there are dissorders of the pituitary gland,  which is , also responsible for regulating thyroid function, it's a mine field.  Bev could you go back and ask for more tests to be done?
I am sorry that you are so unwell, I do feel for you.
Devonhil, just think you have hit the nail on the head there, it's all back to front.  The latest thing is low levels of vitamin D, and supplementation.  It's like the chicken and egg thing.  It's so cheap and easy to send patients on their way with an prescription for AD's.  I also think it's highly unfair to tell a patient that they are depressed, how arrogant is that.   I am sorry, but I feel that the NHS is no longer fit for purpose, well not at a primary care level anyway.  I am fedup with these GP practices, where they allocate the least amount of time possible and then sit with their heads in their computer screens, barely willing to communicate, and the patients is made to feel like a nuisance.  I have given up my my practice, they're just awful. 
sorry to say.  I totally agree with you, and its a great discussion.