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[CACEY]

Hi Ladies

Haven't posted for a while, as I have moved and lots of things have been going on..... Sadly I am still on this rollercoster ride and trying to sort out the correct HRT.....
After having a failed attempt with mirena and oestrogen last year, I decided to try again with the mirena as most of my problems were around the time of ovulation and on going periods. New doctor advised that the mirena would resolve these problems and then I would be able to add in oestrogen or estradot patch. Had the mirena fitted four months ago, insertion was pain free (unlike before, when the doctor took over an hour to fit it and the pain was dreadful!!) once it was fitted I felt great and decided on the advice of the gp to wait and see what happened before I started to add oestrogen. Felt good for about 12 weeks and then my body crashed, nausea, severe joint pain,hot sweats, dizzies and lost over a stone in weight, as I only weigh 9 stone and am 5ft9, I look like I am anorexic... After keeping a diary I realised that there was a pattern to my symptoms in that they started around the middle of every month and got worse..... So I had bloods done and my results were: Oest 37 - FSH: 63: LH: 28. I have been using estradot 25 patch but although I feel I need to increase, my new doctors is refusing this as she says my problems lie with my thyroids, even thought my levels were normal. She also says that patches are more dangerous and that I need to go on low dose tablets. Last week I had bloods done again for my thyroid, although my gut feeling is that my severe symptoms are done to low oestrogen levels.I feel so confused and deflated as this nightmare has been going on for over 4 years and I would really appreciate some guidance from the vast experience and knowledge of you lovely ladies on this site.
Luv Cacey x

[littleminnie]

Can't really help cos I'm post meno and on Conti HRT. But I thoughts patches were safer than tablets. Patches are more expensive so maybe that's why the doctor wants you on tablets.

[Dancinggirl]

Estradot 25 is really low.  I assume you are peri meno but your blood readings seem strange!  I don't really understand what should be the correct oestrogen level but 37 (if correct) is very low!  I recently had my levels read before I came off HRT for a break and my Oestrogen level was 600.
Why didn't you like using Oestrogel?  I've used Oestrogel throughout most of my peri and post meno stages and found it great because you can adjust the amount used till you feel better - find the 'sweet spot'.
Are you on drugs for you thyroid condition?  It will be interesting to see what the latest tests show re your thyroid, as such drastic weight loss is alarming.
Hopefully Hurdity will be along soon with some wisdom - she has the scientific mind which will make more sense of whats happening with you.
A thought:  why not pay to do an email consultation with Dr. Currie?  I did this recently and it was very useful.
DG x

[CACEY]

Thanks for your replies ladies, yes weight loss is drastic, although this happened to me four years ago when I started on this nightmare journey... To date I have not had treatment for thyroid, as it has always shown up normal!! I think my new doctor is very anti hrt, as she stated that it causes cancer...... Not helpful in my present state.  I definitely know that something changes halfway through the month, I start to feel like I have the flu, followed by period type pains, dizzy headaches, drenched by constant hot intense flushes through the night, I have no bleed, I think this is due to mirena, which I am thankful for as I no longer feel anxious. I changed from oestrogen to estradot 25 as my doctor would not prescribe oestrogel as she stated that the cancer risk was higher, in fact she contradicted everything that I said about hrt, just feel so confused as sometimes I feel okay and then I crash, at the moment I am struggling to do anything I feel so lousy and have constant intense heat throughout and everything aches. Sorry to moan on, but I just want to feel normal (forgot what that is..) Thanks again for your help.
Cacey x

[Dancinggirl]

Casey - I'm so sorry to hear you have such an awful GP.  Can you get referred to a meno clinic?
I'm afraid I feel really angry when I hear about GPs who are so dogmatic and behind the times.
As far as I am aware HRT doesn't actually cause cancer as such but there is a very small increased in the chance of breast cancer over longer term.  Transdermal HRT is believed to carry the least side effects and I'm not aware of any different in cancer risk between patches and Oestrogel. 
From what you describe, its sounds as though your body is trying to gear up for a period each month - very strange!

You are still young and clearly very fit so to be on such a low dose of oestrogen seems bonkers!
A thought about energy levels and I hope I am not speaking out of turn here:  As an ex dancer myself, I have had to accept that when I got into my 50s (I'm now 57) I had to adjust my expectation regarding my energy levels. It's not a matter of giving in to growing older but I do think it is important to be kinder to oneself - pull back a bit and accept that the body can't cope with the physical stresses of extreme exercise quite so well - pace things a little more?
Somewhere on this site is the latest recommendations regarding HRT from the leading Gynaes in the UK.  Try to find this, print it off and show it to your GP.
I would definitely get a consultation from Dr. Currie - you could then show her advice to your doctor. Dr. Currie is a Gynae who uses HRT herself and set up this site to help us all.
Good luck  DG x

[CACEY]

Hi DG, thanks for kind reply, I think in the past before peri hit me like a thunderbolt, I was very lucky, no pmt, 3 healthy pregnancies, I used depo jab for contraception so never had periods until I had to come off it five years ago, as the doctor felt that at 45 I was too old to continue, within 6 months of coming off it all of my problems started. It is only recently that I have been able to see a pattern forming, my symptoms go from being manageable to completely debilitating. I have recently quit another job as I just could not function. I saw Proff Studd a while back, but I think that I increased the oestrogel too quickly, which made me feel even worse. Also I think back then I was just in a bad place and tried too change everything too quickly.
I am now starting with a clean sheet and trying to find out if it is my symptoms or the oestrogel causing me problems.
Cacey x

[Trey]

Hi Cacey, I'm fairly sure that I am the oldest member of the wonderful MM forum and have benefited many times from the support of the knowledgeable members.  I am not in touch with HRT as I've had a hyst many many years ago,and would have committed suicide or murder if not on estrogen.  I have been well balanced for decades so believe me there is every expectation that you will be too with the correct balance. 

First off, I speak with complete knowledge on this one.  Normal thyroid levels do not mean normal for YOU.  I had many miscarriages at twelve to sixteen weeks pregnant due to 'normal' thyroid levels, which were, in fact, too low to support my pregnancies.  Several fine doctors have explained that it is far more important to go on clinical symptoms than the lab numbers.   Also  the inter relationship with estrogen levels is very important.

The patch does not send hormones through the liver, where issues with clotting are thought to be caused, and therefore are considered safer.

I took tablets for many years and they worked well for me and I quit them when that ridiculously flawed study came out in 2001.  I immediately got a prolapsed bladder and my gyn was furious that I had quit and immediately put me on the patch which helped a lot but did not reverse the prolapse completely.

I would strongly advise you begin an email consult with Currie.  There are many doctors who are not very wise with hormones and this is probably the most important medical and mental area of your life right now so go to a real specialist and don't waste time and health any longer.

Hurdity is so much more knowledgeable than I on hormones and combinations, but truly you need a good, compassionate doctor and soon.

My thyroid went off a while back and I nearly died, seriously, so do not ignore the need to get it balanced.

My life right now is far better than two decades ago.  I am healthier and happier and very active.  But it took good doctors and getting things balanced.

[CACEY]

Hi Taz

Thanks soooooo much for in depth reply, I truly feel that my problems are from getting the right amount of oestrogen in my body via the best route. I feel that I am still in peri and that my hormones are fluctuating, although now they seem to drop in the second half of the month. The first two weeks I feel okay and then I go down with a bang. I think that I made the mistake of stopping the oestrogel for 12 weeks when I had the mirena fitted, as that is when my weight loss happened and the symptoms started to escalate again. My doctor is very anti hrt and says that none of my symptoms are due to menopause. I know this is complete nonsense and if I get no joy on Thursday at my next appointment, I will change docs. When I went to see Proff Studd a while back my oestrogen levels were 80, which he said were very low, they are now 30 so I guess it makes sense that I am struggling again. I know that I have not helped myself as I keep chopping and changing, but my last appt with doc has just confused me even more. I really feel for you re miscarriages, could I ask what your symptoms were regarding thyroid problems, as I have never had problems in the past, normal pregnancies etc. Cacey x

[Rowan]

I found this very interesting, it does mention estrogen and the thyroid.

http://www.metaboliceffect.com/female-hormones-estrogen/

also

http://thyroid.about.com/od/drsrichkarileeshames/a/femalehormones.htm

http://www.activebeat.co/diet-nutrition/10-signs-you-may-have-a-thyroid-problem/?utm_source=google&utm_campaign=adwords&utm_medium=cpc&utm_keyword=the%20thyroid

Also I recommend reading  The Menopause Thyroid Solution  by Mary J Shannon, I have this book and its excellent.

[CLKD]

I think you need to change your Doctor.  If your thyroid function levels are consistently low/high then you need extra blood tests to determine treatment!  If you have menopausal symptoms, it isn't up to the GP to say it is your thyroid that is causing the problems, we know our own bodies!  Blood tests are notoriously difficult to read because our hormone levels alter almost hourly, so throughout 24 hours dependant on when the bloods were taken, the result will be different.  My Gynae refuses to do them!

I haven't read the replies as I am very tired.  Why, if your thyroid function levels are wrong then is this GP not giving you treatment?  It is true that TF can be 'normal' but in fact, treatment is required. 

Ask for a referral to a Consultant and a MenoClinic!

[CLKD]

Also your weight is fine.  Drastic loss of weight can mean a thyroid problem, happened to our old cat  eating for England but losing weight visibly, until he was given thyroid replacement - which had to be adminstered with gloves on, because the 'nurse' can absorb the drug apparently and this can alter thehuman thyroid condition!

[Hurdity]

Hi Cacey

So sorry to hear about your problems and especially the poor advice from your really unhelpful misguided GP.

I would agree with the others - pay for an e-mail consultation with Dr Currie giving her a brief run down of where you are in meno and your problems, either to show the answer to your GP or so that you can be referred to a meno clinic if there is one near you. Also try to see another GP in the practice, as Limpy says, not this unhelpful one.

I can't really add much to the good advice and information you have already been given except to endorse what has been said re thyorid. The interaction between thryoid and female hormones is complex and probably not even understood by all doctors (hope I'm not doing them an injustice here?) and I understand that many symptoms commonly experienced by women from approx their 40's upwards are due to deficiencies in some of these (ie thyroxine, or female hormones).

There is a school of thought - discussed on thyroid UK that many women are diagnosed with fibromyalgia which is actually due to undiagnosed thyroid problems. The main problem is that there is a range of TSH values considered "normal" and if you fall within that range you are told they are normal and that's that. I understand the reference range for normal varies in different countries and also that there is a sub-clinical level at which symptoms could be troublesome but the blood test appears "normal". Also that many docs only ask for TSH when a full thyroid test would be more revealing ie testing the individual levels of T3 and T4 as some women have conversion problems even when TSH appears normal. I really have only a hazy knowledge of this but do know that it is not straightforward.

Sudden weight loss though, would be indicative of hyperthyroid - whereas in menopause the reverse is usually the case - ie underactive thyroid. Presumably your blood sugar metabolism is OK? I can't see that oestrogen would cause this weight loss - and I think it really important to continue consulting the doctor to find out why this has occurred.

I presume you are peri-menopausal? I am confused about why you were given a Mirena? What were the problems you were getting, that Mirena is supposed to help? It sounds like the Mirena has stopped the bleeding from periods - which it is designed to do - but the other symptoms you are experiencing could be due to the normal hormonal fluctuations in peri-menopause or your cycle.  So this could be - the increase in progesterone, the sudden drop in progesterone ( the pmt just before the period) or the decline in oestrogen in the second half of the cycle.

Whatever else you need I agree the oestrogen dose is too low - you haven't said how old you are - but I guess about 50? Definitely if you are experiencing those symptoms I would go for a higher dose and definitely transdermal. At least Estradot 50 but increase slowly.

I don't think this is much help but just a few thoughts to add to what has already been said.

Whatever you do - go to a different doctor - you should not have to battle to get what you need and have proper up to date advice, nor shouold you have to pay privately for expensive treatment when the NHS should help you!

Hurdity x
PS silverlady the top link didn't seem to work for me - it gave me an error

[CACEY]

Thanks so much for your in depth replys.
I think my weight loss is due to feeling so rough and losing my appetite, I have always been skinny and the slightest bit of stress leads to a drastic weight loss. When I feel well my appetite returns and I put the weight back on. I am now worried that the doctor will blame this on my thyroid, as she didn't take any of my history ( she still hasn't received my notes from previous doctor) she said my symptoms, hot flushes, loss of appetite, hot flushes during last two weeks of cycle, blocked sinuses, period pains, tinnitus, lack of mojo, loss of libido & generally feeling rough were definitely not menopause symptoms. She did not agree with patches or gels & said that tablets were safer!!!! I will definitely email dr currie tomorrow. As I feel that when I go back to docs on Thursday she will refuse to give me any more patches. Thanks again for all of your help. I will add a dose of oestrogel tonight alongside my 25 patch and see what happens tomorrow. Cacey x

[CLKD]

Sounds like meno-symptoms to me.  This GP will get her com-uppance: hopefully her symptoms will be SOOO bad 

Let us know how you get on! 

[CACEY]

Ditto I have to say that after a lot of research on this site and the tremendous amount of knowledge that you ladies have, I am certain that this is due to menopause symptoms. I have just got off the phone from the doctor and have been told by the receptionist that thyroid results are back and no action is to be taken!! I have an appointment with the doc on Thursday, so let the battle commence. I have emailed Dr Curry this morning so will look forward to reading my reply. I have taken Hurditys advice and today I am wearing two 25 estradot patches, so I will see how I feel, I know it will take time as my levels were very low at 30, also my cholesterol came back very high last month, and I suddenly realised yesterday that for the past month I have cut out everything with sat fats, so basically I have been eating only fresh fruit & veg with some meat and fish. As my friend pointed out last night this would have added to my weight loss..... Good old meno brain, I have so much going on, trying to eat properly and do the right thing, I am also in the throes of giving up smoking, which I am struggling with, due to everything that is going on, I constantly reach for the cigs... However I have just ordered an electronic cig this morning and have told myself that Friday is the day to bin the cigs!! The sun has now appeared through the clouds so I am sticking my boots on and taking the dogs for a walk.  Cacey x